Sunday, April 26, 2009

"ALLAH" -- a personal journey, not a public controversy

54 comments:

Anonymous said...

It's indeed a 'personal journey'. I watched this clip and the soft touch of God came across so well - so much love, gentleness and beauty. Would that all man reflect the love, gentleness and beauty of God. W

Anonymous said...

It appears that it is a policy of the Evil BN/Umno regime to allow Christians to be confused and be misled while at the same time blaming the Christians for confusing the Muslims as in the case of Christians calling God, ALLAH...More http://margeemar.blogspot.com

Tamerlane said...

One of the Christans commandments is Thou shall not take your your Lords name in vain or You shall not make wrongful use of your Lords name. The name of the christian God is Yahweh. Then they added Jesus as His son.(Who is also God in another form). Why is there the need to use Allah? The word God in Malay is Tuhan. Allah was never used in the old testament or the greek bible. Their motive is political and transcends the need or translation of the word God but also reveal a hidden missionary agenda through the use of trickery and deceit. The only unforgivable sin in Islam is to associate Allah with other partners. Clearly Jesus is not God in Islam. And to use Allah and Jesus to refer to God is a transgression.This trickery and camouflage tactic is the only way they can confuse the masses as their whole trinity doctrine would fall apart in any debate with a muslim scholar.

vpa73 said...

Dear Tamerlane...I believe you are imposing your opinion based on your own iterpretation of the situation. The whole issue here is that Allah is used in the context of translated bible, not the original one. It has been common practice for christians to translate their bible(and if anyone thinks it is a wrong practice, or using it as an argument to say christianity is wrong, that's their personal belief). I am a christian and I won't get offended if someone questions or belittles my belief. But I feel sad that we are so so misunderstood in Malaysia. I don't have any proof to say that every christian has no intention to confuse the muslims, but generally I don't think they do. At least not me and many christians I know. As Dr Azly says, it (religion) is a personal journey. I only wish we all can live together in peace and harmony without prejudice and the sense that others are more superior than the rest of us. Peace be upon you...

Tamerlane said...

The translation of the word God in malay is Tuhan. Allah is the Islamic word for God in the Quran.You can go to any country on earth and mention the word Allah, they will generally accept it as the Muslim God. Any book of the Quran written in other language besides arabic is a "Quranic translation" and not the Quran in its original form. In any translation some words may be misinterpreted or some arabc words may have dual or more meanings. Muslims believe that the Quran is unaltered since the day it was revealed to Muhammad. That is why we use Allah as it was the name used in the original Quranic revealation. What is the original word for God in Hebrew? Aramaic? Greek? Do you even have an original document of the third party account of mark, matthew, luke and john? Are those the words of Allah? or the just gospels "according to" these folks?



5:72 Indeed, the truth deny they who say, "Behold, God is the Christ, son of Mary" - seeing that the Christ [himself] said, "O children of Israel! Worship God [alone], who is my Sustainer as well as your Sustainer." Behold, whoever ascribes divinity to any being beside God, unto him will God deny paradise, and his goal shall be the fire: and such evildoers will have none to succour them!

amoker said...

I am a Christian and when i read the quranic transalation in English where God is God, I know the context and would not stop Muslims from using this word.

I do agree that the word Allah brings more confusion to Christians and has been used succesfully to convert. In the end, it is respecting each other mate!

Oh ya Tamerlane, you forgot verse 73

73. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

This verse to some people, will give you justification to kill me. Anyway, surah 5.72 is tied in to Surah Al Maryam where the infant (about few days old according to Quran) Isa spoke to proclaim that he is no God.

Anonymous said...

I agree with vpa73... I am a Christian and I too have no wish to confuse Muslims or people of other faiths. I am also open to learning about and appreciating the goodness in the religion of others - be it Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism etc. I watched the video clip posted here and I came away even stronger in my own faith and belief in God - for the God I know is also a gentle God; a God of love, compassion and beauty. All things that are good come from God. I'd like to add that God knows and sees into the hearts of men - whatever intentions we have - be they good or evil. Let God be the judge and let's not take over God's role. Would that we could look for the goodness in God's creation rather than condemn, the world would indeed be a better place. Peace be to all.

Tamerlane said...

That sura is not justification to kill. The judgement is for Allah alone. There is no compulsion in Islam.

Come on, anyone who lives in the west has gotten leaflets pamphlets written in deceptive manner by missionarries in green color or arabic writing, using allah etc. knocks on teh door on sundays. If Christianity is true, why do they need to employ such trickery. Let the truth prevail.

And if muslims concede and allow Allah to be used as a part of the trinity, whats next? what if some other religion want to use Allah for their pagan God?

KaKiaYam said...

sigh, we have so many people like tamerlane in malaysia. They are so used to tell and dictate others and justify it according to their own understanding and belief. Such arrogance are almost always displayed in every public spheres in malaysia. In malay, we term it 'Keangkuhan orang Islam di Malaysia'.

The question now is not whether the terms of Allah is proper or otherwise. The question now is that under what right have you, tamerlane to dictate how shall I call the God I believe?

If that term confuse muslims, whose problem was that? If we attempt to evangelise to muslim, so what? Why is confusion such a dirty word? Isn't it through confusion that we seek clarification, and in the process, gain knowledge and wisdom?

Who are you to determine who can be confuse or otherwise?

"The only unforgivable sin in Islam is to associate Allah with other partners"

But it's the Christians that are using it, my dear....can't you see the point?

"Allah was never used in the old testament or the greek bible"

So? If you are a Christian and you disagree with the usage of Allah, don't use it then. But if you are a Muslim, why has it got anything to do with you?

"Clearly Jesus is not God in Islam"

Exactly!

"This trickery and camouflage tactic is the only way they can confuse the masses as their whole trinity doctrine would fall apart in any debate with a muslim scholar."

So if it is such an obvious (not to mention weak) trickery and camouflage, why are you so worried about it?

sigh, if you still can't get my point, you never will. What the Christians want to call the God that they belief in, has nothing to do with people that does not subscribe to the doctrine of Christianity. It is, for Christians to decide.


Shalom.

KaKiaYam

Tamerlane said...

one moretime, The translation of the word God in malay is Tuhan.

Anonymous said...

...sigh!...and we being mere mortals, sometimes forget that we do not own God... sigh!

KaKiaYam said...

"Come on, anyone who lives in the west has gotten leaflets pamphlets written in deceptive manner by missionarries in green color or arabic writing, using allah etc. knocks on teh door on sundays. If Christianity is true, why do they need to employ such trickery. Let the truth prevail."

emm...does it sound like trickery? if you want to dakwah to a chinese who knows only chinese, do you use bahasa material? if you want to dakwah to an indian barber, do you attempt to intellectually convince him on Islamic doctrine?

does green colour and arabic writing in anyway compromise on Christian doctrine or teachings? huh?

KaKiaYam

Chicken Feet aka KaKiaYam said...

"one moretime, The translation of the word God in malay is Tuhan."

you are right Tamerlane.

Anonymous said...

Since other Muslim countries have no problems with it, the Bolehland "controversy" over the use of the word Allah is a contrived controversy by the government to distract citizens from seeing the real truth about Msia's politicians.

Allah is a generic term for God but the devil has created a debate among the people to argue about terms and semantics while the real thing, the love and worship of God is neglected.

It is also a good strategy to make atheists even more cyclical about religion: "look at those pious guys arguing over a word while the world is reeling."

Anonymous said...

Oops, I meant more cynical, not cyclical.

assbg said...

The Bible has been translated into almost every known language in the world as Christians believe that it is God's Word for all mankind. In the Malay translation, both the names "Allah" and "TUHAN" are used, the name "Allah" meaning "God" and "TUHAN" means "LORD". Thus, in Psalm 7:2 (Mazmur 7:2), it is written:
"Ya TUHAN, Allahku, aku berlindung kepada-Mu; selamatkanlah dan lepaskanlah aku daripada semua orang yang memburu aku." In English, it reads, "O LORD my God, I take refuge in you; save and deliver me from all who pursue me."

As for the fear of confusion, everyone knows that a name can by used by more than one person: eg. we may know a few people named "Tom", but if we inquire a little further as to the full name or address or description of the person, then we'll know which "Tom" is being referred to. Similarly, in English almost every religion cries out to "God", but if we inquire further, each "God" implored upon may be a very different concept or person based on the scriptures of the religion. We cannot claim a monopoly on a name and say that no one else has a right to use that name. We can only study and clarify and say that this name refers to someone else and not to another, or to one god and not another.

Tamerlane said...

I understand the predicament christians are facing trying to explain the malay translation of God. The same predicamet i see online when they try to explain the trinity. God circumcised himself when he was 8, then he make himself die a cross for the sins of man. That way man can continue to sin while God pays for it, while on the cross He ask Himself why he has forsaken himself, then died. 3 days later he decided to resurrect himself etc etc....sigh

one moretime, The translation of the word God in malay is Tuhan.

Anonymous said...

The problem is its created confusion on both religion. I say that we should leave as is it to prevent any hatred on both religion. We dont want these factor used by religion extremist(islam or christian) to spark hatred among both religion.

vpa73 said...

It's no wonder Malaysians are not ready for interreligious dialogues. If one embarks on such dialogues believing that the ONLY thing that should count is one's belief, all they would result in are hurts and bitterness. Even if I were to think that Christianity is not right, I'd think twice about converting to Islam if the Muslims who try to convert me are such people as Tamerlane...I'm thankful my Muslim relatives and good friends are more tolerant. Peace.

Chicken Feet aka KaKiaYam said...

" one moretime, The translation of the word God in malay is Tuhan."

hey, tamerlane, who is disagreeing with you? Many people will agree with you too!

So how many more times you wish to assert that Tuhan is God in Malay? My question is, does Allah means muslim God or God? Keeping in mind what my response will be when you choose either one of them.

Tamerlane, read more. You will learn nothing when you always insist you are right.

KaKiaYam

Tamerlane said...

i should not be the one converting anybody. For guidance one should turn to the Quran. Malaysia can never be ready for interfaith dialogue so long as islam becomes just like a ritual of the malays and a reason to make money and what not. Much like the ancient jewish moneychangers. Charge money for kursus kawin, money from hajj, money this and that. Gone is the freedom to enquire, replaced by authoritarian priestly class. Conversion should only be for those who are ready thru their own willingness. not thru coercion. No one is saying that Christianity is entirely wrong. God cautions us to be careful when reading the bible cos some o the words are those of man. At the end of the days the followers of the true teachings of jesus, moses etc has the chance to enter paradise.

5:69 for, verily, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Sabians, and the Christians - all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds - no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve

Tamerlane said...

altogether now,

The translation of the word God in malay is Tuhan.

Nehemiah said...

This blog dialogue is living proof Malaysia is ready for interfaith religious dialogue. Why?

1. None of the writers here hurled insults at each other despite diasgreeing over the issue.

2. Each one of us are appealing to reason and good sense, although some may need to read more history or be able to see from other perspective.

3. I am learning something new as I read about the trinity, about the Quaranic verse 5: 69 etc. Very enlightening as a Msian which I could not get from the papers. Internet search is too exhausting.

4. We are all ready to have teh tarik and laugh about at ourselves as good neighbours/citizens after this. Right?

natasha said...

Watch Natsha Naked!

MJ said...

God in Malay does not necessarily mean Tuhan!

Bahasa Melayu is a "borrowed" language. BM only has a few original words. For example: 'batu', 'kayu', 'padi' dan 'babi' The word 'Tuhan' was orginally from the sanskrit language and was used by the Hindus in Indonesia. Tuhan actually means "Kepala Dewa". (Kamus Dewan Bahasa and Pustaka, Edusu keempat, 2005)

Just because you decided to translate God to Tuhan does not necessarily mean everybody has to follow your interpretation of the word Tuhan.

Most Indonesian, Orang Asil and Bahasa Melayu speaking Malaysian translate Tuhan as Lord.

Dear Tamerlane
Don't be so arrogant. We all don't have to follow your definition of Tuhan.

Anonymous said...

I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND. HOW MANY COPIES OF BIBLES R THERE?
PLEASE SHOW ME THE ORIGINAL COPY WITH THE WORD ALLAH IN IT.
MELAYU KATA: YA! ALLAH YA TUHAN KU.

Tamerlane said...

Whos arrogant? Since when is stating one's own opinion based on facts a display of arrogance? When a muslim says the syahada it is a proclamation that there is No God but Allah and Muhammad is His prophet. Not there is no god but Jesus. If youre translating to malay, then the word for god in malay is Tuhan. If youre translating into arabic is a different thing. Besides there are other arabian words for god that you can use that is not an assault to the Islamic syahada. How bout allat,hubal,Uzza manat, or egyptian ra, Aten, Amun. i dont think any muslims would object if christians wanna use those words. As i said before, even your commandment said Dont use your Lords name in vain.

sinnerconman said...

The God of the Old Testament is not Allah.
The Isa of the Quran is not the Jesus of the Gospel. So the God of Abraham is not Allah.

Allah is the God of Muhammad through revelations and the believers are the Muslims. There was no Allah as a Muslim Allah before Muhammad who claimed the God of the Bible but denying the Bible as the inspired Word of God.

Thanks and cheers.

Chicken Feet aka KaKiaYam said...

"one moretime, The translation of the word God in malay is Tuhan."

"one moretime, The translation of the word God in malay is Tuhan..."

"...altogether now,The translation of the word God in malay is Tuhan...."

"Whos arrogant?.."

Maybe MJ was refering to you spamming the same word continuously as an act of arrogance. I consider that as an act of arrogance too :)

But it doesn't matter, really. If you think you are not, then you are not...:)
The opinion of others counts nothing to you...and i respect that...:)

Some people still doesn't get it.

"Besides there are other arabian words for god that you can use that is not an assault to the Islamic syahada. "

you are scared, aren't you? you're getting defensive, aren't you? sigh...

sinnerconman said...

The word "Allah" seems to come from the Aramaic/Syriac word "alaha" meaning "God" of "the God". The final "a" in the name of alaha was originally the definite article "the" and is regularly dropped when words and names are borrowed into Arabic. The doubling of the "l" is irrelevant as it is a very late invention of Arabic orthography centuries after Muhammad.

All the prophets mentioned in the Quran were also personalities mentioned in the Bible and of course Muhammad was never mentioned in the Bible though he claimed (again just claim) that there were prophesies about him. Ishmael was also mentioned in the Bible but he was never mentioned as a prophet and so did David. David was never mentioned as a prophet but a king of Israel, the greatest King of Israel.

Abraham, Issac and Jacob are the Patriarchs and they are not prophets and so is Joseph not a prophet. However Muhammad "made" them prophets through his revelations converting them to Muslims when Muhammad claimed that he that is Muhammad was the first Muslim. Muhammad claimed that they were the prophets of God and Muslims believe whatever Muhammad said and Muslims are taught to follow the steps and actions of Muhammad, many of which were the traditions and cultural practices of the feudal Arabs.

Muhammad started as a warner to the people and later as he grew strong with the army of the faithful, he became a different person using war as a means to an end.

Thanks and cheers!

Anonymous said...

to all> MAY ALLAH BLESS YOU.
Only ALLAH the ALMIGHTY knows BEST. AMEEN

Tamerlane said...

sinnerconman, the name really suits you. Why are you trying to show as if islam is a violent religion and arabs as feudal people. Look into your old testament ad see how violent the hebrews and yahweh was. The Israelites vs edomites, canaanites, etc etc. Muhammad did not use war as a justification to get what he wants. The early muslims were persecuted and any fighting was done to defend themselves against persecution. David,the greatest king of the bible you mentioned is also a violent monarch. Didnt david decapitate Goliath? Planned for Uriah's death as he covet and stole the latters wife? presented saul with 200 philistines foreskins as payment for his bride? have absalom, his own son murdered?Didnt Joshua kill ALL the inhabitants of Jericho? etc etc etc


Muhammad WAS prophesized in the bible.In the Bible Moses said that God will raise a prophet among the israelites brethren. Ishmael is the elder brother of Isaac. Ishmael's lineage is the "brethren" of Isaac and jacob. Arabs are the brethren of the jews.

It is also mentioned that a Prophet will rise from the desert of Paran (Arabia) from the house of Kedar (one of Ishmaels sons). Hagar and ismael were left stranded in the desert and later settled in Paran didnt they?

And yet again Muhammad was mentioned by name in the song of Solomon.

You speak as if arabic language evolve from hebrew and jewish words.Arabs are descendands of Ismael, the OLDER son of abraham, jews are the descendants of jacob, the grandson of abraham. Abe didnt pop up in Jerusalem but came from Iraq.

And what has Abe, isaac, etc being prophets got to do with translation of the word God?

Muslims dont simply believe the words of Muhammad. Muslims belive in the Quran as the words of Allah. The divine author of the Quran has been proven when the 19 primer was discovered within the text using computers. zero to zero are 1 to 9.

kakiayam, i am not scared of anything the christian missionary can throw at me. But i fear for the many ignorant malays who are just traditional ritual worshipper. The ones that will likely to use violence upon the slightest provocation as this issue can very easily get out of control.

sinnerconman said...

Tamerland,

You are really great and smart knowing what other people think but the worst thing from you is attacking this poor chap personally, "sinnerconman really suits you" when you hardly know yours truly.. It is you who said that Islam is a violent religion and during the time of Muhammad, you refused to believe that it was a feudal period in Arabia which is better than Europe becoming a dark age for over half a century.

Ishmael was the eldest son and no one is going to argue with you. The promised son is Issac and the God of the Bible, not Allah made a covenant, " Yes ... bear you a son, and you will call his name Issac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers ... But my covenant I will establish with Issac" (Genesis 17:19-21)

The prophecy of the twelve rulers were fulfilled, "These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to the settlements and camps" (Genesis 25:16)

The Torah speaks in the name of the God of Abraham and remember the word Allah is never found in the Torah. Stop claiming that the God mentions in the Torah is Allah who came into existence after Muhammad.

Thanks and cheers.

sinnerconman said...

Tamerland,

You are shameless to claim that Moses prophesied that God would raise up a prophet like him among Israelites without any evidence claiming that prophet is Muhammad. I know you have in your mind, of course I really know it but you have to show the evidence. You mentioned Ishmael but that sounds hollow and means nothing.

Remember Muslim scholars have tried for over 1400 years but until today cannot produce any solid or concrete evidence from the Torah or the Gospel explaining and giving evidence from the scripture. A claim is just a claim and will not stand on its own without any evidence. You have to give the quotation from the Torah to support your claim for otherwise you are nothing but empty vessel making the loudest noise.

Did Muhammad make you chase in emptiness or was his claim just another revelation which he could not recite for one reason or another?

Thanks and cheers!

Tamerlane said...

Only Muhammad's life is parallel to that of Moses. Being a messenger, given a divine revealation, persecuted,leader of his people, statesman, etc.

You quote passages from the bible to prove your claim, i can also quote from the quran to prove mine. Bible has been proven to have inaccuracies ,contradictions and is the evolution of the words of man. It is a collection of books which the church chooses from a selection of writings to suit its need , that is to prove the divinity of Christ while excluding those that show him as a man.The jewish christianity with jesus as a prophet was replaced by gentile christianity which incorporates some the roman elements of deification of many gods hence the Trinity thing.


Why would i have to give any quote from the Torah? the torah has been corrupted by the words of man and has been writen over thousands of years. What is the oldest surviving torah? can it be dated to the time of Moses to make sure the contents are not changed? if the Torah has been preserved in its entirety, God would not need to have sent subsequent prophets like Jesus and Mohammad to correct the errors of the israelites. The Quran doesnt speak ill of the patriachs and prophets, unlike the bible.Isnt it natural for the descendands of jacob to write favorable things about themselves while speak unfavourably of the mabites, edomites, canaanites etc? Such proves that it was indeed written by the hands of man. Why do you think the jews control Hollywood? Are they not the greatest storytellers of all time? Fact or fiction?

That covenant you refered to was made by God with the faithful/believers not based on race. That is why Jacob was renamed Israel. If they transgress Gods laws or become evildoers or whatever the agreement is null and void. Quran refutes the chosen race etc. After God had destroyed Jerusalem and punised the Israelites again and again for turning their backs, He then again extended his hand to them through Muhammad. One third of the Quran is directed at the children of israel. Passages like Oh children of Israel, etc etc. Were sent to the jewish communities in arabia and just like they turned their backs on Jesus, so did they with Muhamad.Just like they colluded with the romans to have jesus eliminated, the jewish tribes of arabia also had a coalition with the powerful meccans to rid Muhammad.

MJ said...

I don't get you Tamerlane.
You said.
"Muhammad WAS prophesized in the bible.In the Bible Moses said that God will raise a prophet among the israelites brethren."

Moses was before Muhammad and the Quran, that means before you use the word Allah, this means you believe in the same God as the God of Moses, and Abraham yet you yourself do not use the "original" name of God as written during the time of Moses and Abraham.

As you quite rightly asked....
What is the original word for God in Hebrew? Aramaic? Greek? ...do you even know?!?

Tamerlane said...

The same God spoke in the previous books before His message was diluted and lost by the actions of man.. But that God is the Almighty God and He is not Jesus. To use the Muslim Allah to include a human (jesus) is wrong cos Allah has no partners.

In Hebrew - Yahweh
Aramaic- Elohim or elah
Greek - i'm not sure

My point is muslims refer to Allah cos its the original word used in the Quran. Christians should use whatever words that was used i the origial text revealed to them. If such manuscript still exist, but im pretty sure its not Allah.

Jeremiah said...

To those of you who have doubts about the Bible's truth or that it is not inspired by the living God, read this mind-blowing analysis from a scientific/historical/archaelogical perspective:

http://jeremiahliang.blogspot.com/2009/03/five-ways-to-ascertain-truth-of-bible.html

Tamerlane said...

No muslims doubts the existence of Isa. We only believe he's not God. Your website doesnt prove the resurrection of Jesus. Archeologically or historically. Of course the old testament speaks of the kings of Israel, its a hebrew book. Just like the clay tablets of egypt,sumeria speak of their kings.

If Gods loves the world why did he allow his only son to suffer and be killed? Does he not love Jesus? Why should another man pay for the sins of others?Wouldnt that love be better demonstrated by saving jesus from the crucifiction? Much like when God replaced Ishmael with a sheep? if God is all powerful, then He can save Isa from the prophet slayers.

Jeremiah said...

Tamerlane,

This is the precise point which you seem to misunderstand:

1. God created the world (all three Abrahamanic/theistic religions agree)

2. Adam and Eve dwelled in the garden to commune with God.
(All three agree). And they were to obey God.

3. The fallen angel through the serpent tempted them to disobey.

4. The penalty of this sin is death and banishment from close communion with God.

5. God seeks the perfect sacrifice for this sin to be forgiven and siped out. (Just as Abraham/Jews/Muslims sacrificed the lamb/bull)

6. That sacrifice can only be Jesus, the son of God incarnated on earth. No human is worthy of this sacrifice, which is an act of perfect love with no conditions.

7. The Father God and the Son Jesus are one and the same aspects of God. He loved us so much that he would give His only Son (just like Abraham) to forgive us the ancestral sin of Adam passed down to us.

8. Jesus is alive and has appeared to countless peoples. Just read www.spiritlessons.com

What he has done for you on the cross 2,000 years ago, Tamerlane, is forever and unchangeable. It depends on you to open your mind and heart to explore the truth of Jesus.

Anonymous said...

My conscience is twitting my bladder muscle to communicate this: Demolish only views/dogmas; not temples/idols - although Abraham did just that, didn't he?

Okie dokie, I must hurry-burry & leave this hullabaloo in search of that illusive Synthetic Cake I must earn. To Petra, stay true, brother! Cheers all.

MJ said...

Tamerlane, you sound like you are refering to Allah as the name of your Muslim God.

Whereas the Malay Bible refers to Allah as a word for God.

There is a difference. When the Christian use Allah they are not refering to the Muslim Allah. Thus when you said...
"To use the Muslim Allah to include a human (jesus) is wrong cos Allah has no partners."
This is not relevant to Christian. Christian are not refering to the Muslim Allah.

Can Christian dictate to you what word or name to use to refer to your God?
Similarly, can you dictate to Christian what words they use to refer to the word God?!?

You also misunderstand the Christian concept of sacrifice.
When you said...
"Much like when God replaced Ishmael with a sheep? if God is all powerful, then He can save Isa from the prophet slayers."

You fail to understand the Jesus was the Sheep and we represented Issac. Just as God provided the sheep in the place of Issac, God loves us so much that he sent his only Son Jesus Christ to be the sacrifice for us. He paid for our sins on our behalf. That is the greatest act of love!!

Tamerlane said...

really? Then why do i have to pay my credit card bills, etc etc. If Jesus loves me so much have him pay the bills.

KaKiaYam said...

Guys, can't you see you are wasting your time with Tamerlane here? From the onset, Tamerlane does not seek discussion and beneficial interaction. He is only prepared to listen to what he wants to say....sigh...

If you have read all his reply, you would have noted that there are just too many opening and inconsistencies in his replies. How could you argue or even find common ground with someone whose only target is to win and have the last say?

you don't reason with the unreasonable, you just ignore them.

KaKiaYam

Tamerlane said...

If Allah is used in the Quran to mean one god. how can it be used to define more than one entity. The pretext given is to translate into malay. Then use Tuhan. whats the problem? If your translating to arabic its another story.For me its not about winning its about the truth. i think its the christians who desperately wants to win and get to defile he word Allah by attibuting partners to Him. And by doing so get to trick many unsuspecting malays into believing that Jesus is part of Allah.

sinnerconman said...

Surat Al-Ma'idah 6:68 says:
People of the book, you will not make any point until you keep the Torah and the Gospel - T.B. Irvin The First American Version of the Quran.

It is clear from this Quranic verse that the Quran does not supersede the Torah and the Gospel because if the Quran superseded then why is it that the people of the book will not make any point or have any guidance until they keep the Torah or the Gospel.

There come in time in the life of Muhammad when he himself doubted the revelation he received. Allah commanded him to ask those who read the scriptures that were before him, the Torah and the Gospel, that is the Bible.

"And if thou (Muhammad) are in doubt concerning that which we revealed unto thee, then question those who read the scriptures (that was before thee), verily the truth from the Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of those who deny the revelations of Allah, for then wert thou of the loses" Surat Yunus 10:94-95).

This verse declares that the Quran does not supersede the Torah and the Gospel. Muhammad had to ask those who read the Bible before him to be sure of the revelations he received.

"There is no way to alter Allah's word" Surat Yunus 10:64.

So it is very clear from these verses that Allah promised to guard his word and there is no way to alter it or to accuse the jews and the Christians to purposely corrupt the Bible. He who said this really stretches his imagination.

Muslims must stop making unfounded claims for this will put them in an embaressing position.

MJ said...

1. You are right when you say "...Allah is used in the Quran..." However Christian are not refering to the Quran. Allah in the Malay Bible just means God. I.e. not the Muslim God in the Quran.

2. Tuhan in the Malay Bible is translated as Lord. (example: Tuhan Yesus is translated as Lord Jesus and not God Jesus) Actually is there another word for Lord in Malay? I can't think of one.

3. If any Malay is that easily trick, then I question if he/she is truly a believing Muslim in the first place (and vice versa).

I am sure you would agree with me that no self respecting Muslim/Christian will be that easily trick or confuse by this Allah issue right?!?

Finally I am sorry but I do not agree with KaKia Yam. At least Tamerlane has not stoop to personel insults and etc.

So far it this discussion is still civil and respectable. (Credit must be given to him for not saying that we are insulting Islam and thus should be thrown into ISA for even talking about this issue.) :)

Chicken Feet aka KaKiaYam said...

"If Allah is used in the Quran to mean one god. how can it be used to define more than one entity."

Was it being used to define multiple entity in Islam? If your question is NO, then what's your problem? :) You mean you want to sue us for infringing copyright? Then by all means!

"The pretext given is to translate into malay. Then use Tuhan. whats the problem? "

Obviously it's none of yours since you are not an adherent of Christianity.

"For me its not about winning its about the truth."

But that's from your point of view, my dear. And I respect that.

"i think its the christians who desperately wants to win and get to defile he word Allah by attibuting partners to Him."

My understanding of God is that He who is Holy and the Creator cannot be defile. Maybe your understanding is different. To the muslims in Malaysia, it seems anything can be defile...even God ....sigh...

"And by doing so get to trick many unsuspecting malays into believing that Jesus is part of Allah."

Well, to me, Allah is one, as Jesus is one with Allah and the Holy Spirit. Surely the majority muslims who has converted to Christianity know about this well before they make the decision. Perhaps you could cite me an example where muslims was 'tricked' into Christianity and converted without even having the knowledge of Trinity.

Sometimes i seriously wonder, what is the issue. Was it the name of Allah that was misuse (according to your narrow interpretation), or was it the muslims that are converted by trickery.

If it is the first one, then it's none of your business to dictate what other religion calls their God.

If it is the second, then what you could do is to ensure that muslims that are converted knows about the concept of Trinity. Maybe you could lobby those in the government to enact a law where all conversion to christianity must know what Trinity stands for. Seriously, I don't mind at all. :)

There is no point for you to quote the Bible, since you don't agree to the major doctrine within. Similarly, it is useless for you to quote the Quran, since we don't subscribe to the doctrine within the Quran.

sigh...i never knew that it was that simple to convert the malays just by using Allah.

KaKiaYam

Tamerlane said...

Yes youre quite right, God cannot be defiled.But the word meaning God,Allah can be. And if a Christian wants to hang next to the dead guy on a cross, the word Allah in arabic script just like the muslims do in their house, is that also permissible in your opinion? You are definitely right about me being narrow minded, as narrow as ONE, and we call him Allah.

5:75 The Christ, son of Mary, was but an apostle: all [other] apostles had passed away before him; and his mother was one who never deviated from the truth; and they both ate food [like other mortals]. Behold how clear We make these messages unto them: and then behold how perverted are their minds!


5:116 AND LO! God said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, `Worship me and my mother as deities beside God'?" [Jesus] answered: "Limitless art Thou in Thy glory! It would not have been possible for me to say what I had no right to [say]! Had I said this, Thou wouldst indeed have known it! Thou knowest all that is within myself, whereas I know not what is in Thy Self. Verily, it is Thou alone who fully knowest all the things that are beyond the reach of a created being's perception.


5:117 Nothing did I tell them beyond what Thou didst bid me [to say]: `Worship God, [who is] my Sustainer as well as your Sustainer.' And I bore witness to what they did as long as I dwelt in their midst; but since Thou hast caused me to die, Thou alone hast been their keeper: for Thou art witness unto everything.

5:118 If thou cause them to suffer - verily, they are Thy servants; and if Thou forgive them - verily, Thou alone art almighty, truly wise!"

MJ said...

So in summary of this discussion, we can agree to disagree on:

1. You can use the word Tuhan the way you want = God
and Christian will use Tuhan to = Lord

2. You use Allah as the NAME of your One and Almighty Muslim Allah...
and Christian who use the Malay Bible will use the WORD Allah = to the WORD God in English (not a name!)

3. You can believe whatever you want about Jesus. That is your right! And you can quote scripture from whatever Holy Scripture you see fit. That is your right and you should not be condemned for it.
Likewise Christian should be able to use what ever words they deem fit to explain the definition of whatever words in the Malay Bible and should not be dictated by another religion.

Thank You for this very stimulating conversation! Until the next interesting topic comes up...may God Bless You!!! (Tamerlane & Kakiayam)

--------------SIGNING OUT!----------------

Tamerlane said...

3:103 And hold fast, all together, unto the bond with God, and do not draw apart from one another. And remember the blessings which God has bestowed upon you: how, when you were enemies, He brought your hearts together, so that through His blessing you became brethren; and [how, when] you were on the brink of a fiery abyss. He saved you from it. In this way God makes clear His messages unto you, so that you might find guidance,

3:104 and that there might grow out of you a community [of people] who invite unto all that is good, and enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing of what is wrong: and it is they, they who shall attain to a happy state!

Anonymous said...

I ditto MJ's comments.

I appreciate Tamerlane's (11.02pm) chosen quotes - particularly this: "3:104 and that there might grow out of you a community [of people] who invite unto all that is good, and enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing of what is wrong: and it is they, they who shall attain to a happy state!"

Let's agree to disagree in respectful manner; let's look for the goodness in all man and let's give thanks to the Lord for He is good.

PEACE

Chicken Feet aka KaKiaYam said...

"Yes youre quite right, God cannot be defiled.But the word meaning God,Allah can be..."

hahaha...i much as i dislike the way you present your argument, you did managed to give me a smile... cheers brother...

So God cannot be defile, but the name of God, Allah (which means God) can be. :) So the next time I say Allah, I don't mean God, just the name of God, which can be defiled... sigh...

"And if a Christian wants to hang next to the dead guy on a cross, the word Allah in arabic script just like the muslims do in their house, is that also permissible in your opinion?"

I wouldn't impose my view on others and I don't think anyone or any government should.

"You are definitely right about me being narrow minded, as narrow as ONE, and we call him Allah."

So are you saying you are as narrow minded as Allah? hey, you are defiling Allah, for God sake. But of course, it's the name you are defiling, not Allah.

Tamerlane said...

6:22 for one Day We shall gather them all together, and then We shall say unto those who ascribed divinity to aught beside God: "Where, now, are those beings whom you imagined to have a share in God's divinity?"

6:23 Whereupon, in their utter confusion, they will only [be able to] say: "By God, our Sustainer, we did not [mean to] ascribe divinity to aught beside Him !"

6:24 Behold how they have lied to themselves -and [how] their false imagery has forsaken them!

6:25 And there are among them such as [seem to] listen to thee [O Prophet]: but over their hearts We have laid veils which prevent them from grasping the truth, and into their ears, deafness. And were they to see every sign [of the truth], they would still not believe in it-so much so that when they come unto thee to contend with thee, those who are bent on denying the truth say, "This is nothing but fables of ancient times!"

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