The future of our interfaith dialogue PDF Print E-mail
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Monday, 11 August 2008 10:21
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The incident of the aborted Bar Council forum was a good example how we will continue to approach inter-faith dialogue. There is vision in chaos, creation in destruction, and opportunities in threats.
Azly Rahman dr.azly.rahman@gmail.comThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it
http://azlyrahman-illuminations.blogspot.com/
Must engaging in dialogue on religion be painful? Must it be greeted with hostility? Or is it a moot question—that the answer lies in what we failed to have done through our education system, decades ago?
I have faith that we will one day be ready to appreciate interfaith dialogue. On this note, I too believe that we will one day appreciate philosophical discussions and scientific debates. My experience conducting interfaith dialogue every semester in the American classroom setting gives me the assurance that we will be ready. It would be good to one day know that our corridors of academia are filled with passionate discussions on the self, the universe, God, and fate of humanity.
The core of each religious foundation is there for us to explore and to learn from. We need to escape from being trapped in the particular and liberate ourselves into explorers of the universal. Of course this will take time given the nature of class and caste system we are in; developments that have impacted upon our consciousness. But evolve we must, if we are to see a progressive country emerging out of these ruins of communal politics, immorality of modern capitalism, and persistent religious misunderstandings. Ignorance is the greatest enemy of knowledge, as the sage Socrates once said.
What is interfaith dialogue?
The incident of the aborted Bar Council forum was a good example how we will continue to approach inter-faith dialogue. There is vision in chaos, creation in destruction, and opportunities in threats. Educators of peace and social justice must not give up. In a country in which we have for example Center for Civilizational Dialogue in Universiti Malaya, and in a country wanting to be known as a "moderate country with a Muslim majority", we are seeing contradictions. It will get uglier if we fail to reflect upon the means and methods of religious dialogue. We do not know much what each one of us believes in and what are the rituals and practices of our neighbours. We do not know what scripture they read, let alone the meaning of the prayers, the doa, zikir, the pujas, and the mantras. We lack the knowledge of the fundamentals. This is understandable – fear governs our consciousness and directs our actions and ultimately reproduces itself inter-generationally. Religion is a "sensitive" issue, they say--- which needs desensitization, I would contend.
Back to the protests on the Bar Council forum. It is a misrepresentation of what Muslims are and a reflection of how we have approached not only dialogue on religion but also on other "sensitive issues" as well. In this environment and in this regime where exploitation of issues are orchestrated by opportunists at the expense of peaceful dialogue, we will always be at the losing end of education for critical consciousness and for peace.
We must go back to the drawing board of our approach to teaching religion in terms of curricular design and how to juxtapose or even infuse it with core idea of humanism and rationalism. This will take another few decades given the complexity of our society and how it has evolved in line with the "half-bakedness" of hypermodernity.
Here in the United States, I have just finished teaching two summer classes on "Religions of the World" and Introduction to Religion" in a college where I have also been asked, for the last three years, to teach "Islamic Scriptures". I find it liberating to conduct classes after classes in which my students not only are American and foreign-born Muslims but also Jews, Christians, Catholic, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, and even Pagan. At the end of each semester, they have a different perception of each other -- more in-depth understanding of what could have remained antagonistic. We read the Quran and the Hadiths and look at the scriptures from a hermeneutic perspective, situate it in the present and projecting it into the future. Most often, our discussions on jihad evolved into a reflection on the struggles for the human self to explore suffering, violence, and liberation in all religious traditions. It includes passionate discussions on media representation of the concept.
Dialogue in Malaysia?
I often wonder if what I am doing is possible in Malaysia but I certainly have the confidence and hope that given the most peaceful way to approach it, a lot can be gained. Essentially religious dialogue need not be painful. It ought to help foster deep understanding and dispel misconception of ANY religion. It ought to make us become deeply religious and to learn to explore what others believe, to respect them, to learn from the universal themes of spirituality, and ultimately to contemplate our existence within the context of the struggle between Good and Evil and to evolve as more ethical and rational beings – so that we may participate better as political and social beings..
I believe we need to revamp undergraduate foundation courses in our public and private to include one that teaches the classics of the thoughts of the Eastern and Western tradition and the scriptures of the major religions. But then again, our university students are not even allowed to be involved in politics and to engage freely in public forum on political matters – how might this be possible with interfaith dialogue then?
We have a long walk to mental freedom and to a philosophical understanding of Islam and other religions. Unfortunately we are now known as people who are good at disrupting dialogues. I hope this perception will change.
But then again, education is about hope, peace, empathy, intelligence, and liberation -- these we must use as a basis for a new design once we see major restructuring efforts under way, undertaken perhaps via a new political, social, and educational arrangement.
Let us look at possibilities in interfaith dialogue. Let education for peace and justice do that.
[NOTE: I have gathered some background materials on various major religion as on my website http://azlyrahman-illuminations.blogspot.com/. Please scroll down to the very end]
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written by ctchoolaw, August 11, 2008 10:32:41
What is the problem with a forum like that organised by the Bar Council? Is there absolutely no free speech in certain religions? http://ctchoolaw.blogspot.com/
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written by Birdbrain, August 11, 2008 10:37:45
I often wonder if what I am doing is possible in Malaysia but I certainly have the confidence and hope that given the most peaceful way to approach it, a lot can be gained
It's only possible when Ketuanan Melayu dies, otherwise dream on! Majority of the Muslims in Malaysia don't even know why there are Muslims!!??
UMNO never wanted them to be good Muslims, UMNO only wanted them to be obediently supporting their Ketuanan Melayu cause.
Jean Abdullah said, "Islam is a beautiful religion!" (under duress!)
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written by cubi76, August 11, 2008 10:48:02
Who's more capable and eligible then Bar Council and lawyers to discuss laws and legal framework in our country? The demonstrators with threat "Death to Jews"?
Dr Azly's dream of multicultural and constructive interfaith dialouge and education institutions will never materialize. Reason? Who is(and was) our Education Ministers, other than 'keris waving' warriors who shouted 'Soak Chinese Blood with Keris'? How to revamp education system if the ones in-charge are made up of these people? The situation will only get worse.
It's clear that MuslimMalays are not yet ready for any peaceful interfaith dialouge. The MuslimMalays' problems need to be solved from within. And hopefully be solved the sooner the better.
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written by Engineer, August 11, 2008 10:54:36
It is something we will never get as long as BN is in power; that is why we need Anwar to form the new government the way Chandra Mustaffa doesn't like.
Who care what this Chandra doesn't like ?
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written by backs, August 11, 2008 10:54:54
a great read... and i totally agree with dr. azly rahman.
being a muslim myself (a malay too), i'm all for interfaith dialogues and forums. it is meant for intellectual growth and promotes religous understanding.
however, to have it openly at this point in time is not the way to go. especially considering our polarized education system and the present political situation where such dialogue would be used by certain people (hmmhmm..umno..hmm) to gain political mileage of the malay community.
such dialogues or forums need a soft approach. be knowledgeable but also wise to its use. it could have been conducted behind close doors amongst the intelectual representatives of all faiths. build up understanding amongst the learned while we bring the masses to a point where they are open to such enlightenment. start small...and surely the momentum will build.
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written by AlwaysFair, August 11, 2008 10:57:02
There is nothing wrong to have a such a forum. If it is so sentitive then have it behind closed doors. You know full well some people think they are appointed protectors of the faith and always react so violently when there is the slightest perceived "threat " to their religion.
I still feel that the people concerned have also to blame themselves. If you borrow money form Ah long and don't pay surely got trouble. If you become Muslim it is of course not so easy to get out.
The motto to everyone is "LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAP."
If you choose to jump into a pit you must be prepared to be trapped inside for life.
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written by chanatak, August 11, 2008 11:00:14
"Real Gold Fears No Fire". Truth Prevails in any debate.
Now, show me a muslim country anywhere that allows religious debate. Is there truth in it?
That's truth.
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written by alan cheong, August 11, 2008 11:12:04
Must engaging in dialogue on religion be painful? Must it be greeted with hostility? Or is it a moot question—that the answer lies in what we failed to have done through our education system, decades ago?
THE answer inevitably is a definite and guaranteed 'YES' when it comes to muslims/islamists, the world over I might add.
I think it's only a matter of time before other nations decide this 'cancer' must be excised, the world over, at all costs?
Perhaps, the more pertinent question(s) would be 'How do we undo or reeducate herd-mentality types?' 'Who've been subjected to rubbish in, ergo, rubbish out progs since childhood?'
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written by tanwi, August 11, 2008 11:14:31
I honestly cannot see what is wrong with having this forum. What i fail to understand is why the police DID NOT arrest those damn idiots who storm into the building and shouting racist words. Another blunder by the police which clearly shows that they are being in control of you know who.
Najib said that the forum will be opposed by a certain few who are not open to the forum. he's right. He was referring to the idiot 300-500 people who probably dont even understand freedom of speech and religion. Islam is a great religion and will not falter nor shudder if similar forums are held daily worldwide.
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written by ahmadneil, August 11, 2008 11:16:29
The FIRE of interfaith dialogue must not be extinguish by these muslim fanatics.They must not hold this dialogue to ransom.
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written by Rainbowseahorse, August 11, 2008 11:25:15
As I wrote elsewhere in this blog, we Malays are a bunch of "sophisticated, rational, religious, self-righteous, hypocrites, and superior” race and that's why we do not allow other races to hold dialogue on our race and religion. Didn't you know that Islam originated from our Malay race? And that the reason we do not have a written langue is that we are so superior that we just do not have need of the written words! Do you know that we still practice our past superior ancestral rituals and beliefs, even though that is forbidden in our precious Koran? Yes, we Malays are just way ahead of our time and so we do not allow any discussion/dialog/forum of any sort about us and our religion. This is enshrined in our beloved constitutions, you know!
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written by shan, August 11, 2008 11:29:01
I am digusted with this utter nonsense of "India and Cina" get out thing.For the records,.,we were brought here by the Mat Salleh to develop this country.IN doing so we lost track of time,but you cannot say we overstayed our welcome..,.We paid the taxes and we very much own this country as you do.,.I would say we have more rights as we as mentioned earlier"DEVELOPED MALAYSIA".,.It was we who brought Islam to the shores of these country.,."Admiral Cheng Ho" and the Malabarese.So islam did not come directly from the Middle East.
What have you umnoputras done to this country,you were pirates then and still are today,.,inciting hatred wherever you go, makes me think of the start of Islam,And if it wasn't for us, you will still be selling pisang goreng,and nasi lemak in the kampung,.,.or jaga pintu or driver kereta.,.And you have the cheek to tell us to get out.
The richest people in the country should tell you how we worked to be where we are today, can you give any examples of umnoputras who have worked hard,without having any bones throwned to them.They stole your money with various policies and instilled that god will save you if your concentrate all your energies on god and protect islam in this nation.
We are survivers, we can survive anywhere, can you?
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written by RCChia, August 11, 2008 11:29:59
Lest we forget, it was only a small group of people who claim to represent the Malay Muslims who protested violently. Definitely they do not represent the majority views. Also, the Bar Council is not a religious nor ethnic body. Would it have made any difference if the President of the Bar Council, or the EXCO are reputable members of the Malay race?
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written by Tom n Jerry, August 11, 2008 11:30:39
In a nutshell,I would aptly describe there are many people stil;l *katak di bawah tempurung*-IT era stil extremists around;how to go global?Alhamdulilah there are stil conscientious Chinese around who are so tolerant they can take anything in their stride! smilies/sad.gif
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written by kc respect, August 11, 2008 11:32:32
I have no right to question other peoples' faith?? I can only question MY FAITH to my own religion. Is my faith so weak that I will be let astray by others' action?. If my faith is so strong, I will walk through the valley of shadows of death, for I fear nothing. If I am strong, i will overcome it, if I am weak ... no point I make so much noise, because I have no faith on my own faith.
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written by bumiputeri, August 11, 2008 11:45:08
Yes, I agree with SHAN above.
I am also sick and tired of this LEMBUS!!! I want to get the hell out of here!!!!
Hey Malaysia, I bet if you can give the cash that we deserve for all our hard work here, then not a single NON_MALAY would want to be here!!!!
Give us the money and let us go!!!! You can give millions and billions of MYCards to those Pariah Indons, Philipinos, Banglas, Pakis, and Africans and see what you become!!!!!
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written by cubi76, August 11, 2008 11:57:44
Dear BumiPuteri
Do you think only nonMalays want to get out of Malaysia? Where does role model of Malays 'Tun' Daim reside? Why did Muhammad2Taib buy bangalows not in Malaysia but in Australia and NZ? Why did AAB have mansion in Perth? These are all so-called 'tokoh-tokoh' Melayu, the leaders, the protectors... Even TDM wants to migrate.
Do you now see the bigger picture? Majority of Kampong Malays failed to see it. I hope you are not like one of them.
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written by Rozlan, August 11, 2008 12:53:39
I was made to understand by Sunday (10th August) Harian Metro that the party who shout "babi" ,"pergi balik Cina" was made by PEKIDA,an UMNO gangster.They are the one who break into the forum conference room and threaten the forum members..It is not PAS members..
PEKIDA is not an Islamic organization even when they named themselves as PERSATUAN KEBAJIKAN ISLAM DAN DAKWAH.Most of its member are non practising muslims.Never pray,didnt fast during Ramadhan and many of them indulge in gambling (nombor ekor) as well practising witchcraft.All of their actions did not represented by Islam at all.In fact most of PEKIDA members normaly are good for nothing persons.Irresponsible to their families and many of them dont have serious jobs.Paklah is one of PEKIDA elders.Their creation i think was for the sole pupose to tarnish the other Islmic movements..
I believes they had been hired by UMNO to create havoc in the demonstration to nailed the PAS members.You see the one who had been arrested not them but Zulkifli Noordin and a few other.
PAS should learned not to get involved with any UMNO sponsored organization..If they do this is a good example of consequences occured..
AS muslim we should debate with non muslim wisely.Fight debate with debate,Forum with forum etc...In fact we should take advantages from the forum to explain Islamic view to the non muslim so that they will understand Islam and its teaching..
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written by smpadayachi, August 11, 2008 13:43:33
Dr.Azly Rahman your piece in the inter faith dialogue is much sought after at the moment when the politician of the country namely Najib Razak, Syed Hamid Albar, Zahid Hamidi along with chorus of people venting the same venom as others who had alreday did, and that is..do not touch sensitive issues of Islamic matters. Dr. Azly in your American experience of having students all the way to every strata of the American fabric (here in Malaysia out pure arrogance and ignorance, Malaysians still call Native American Indians as Red Indians) the acceptance for an open discussion after 9/11 among the vast consensus from the American public seems to be favourable, but unfortunately like you've mentioned in your piece it might take a decade to have a meaningful discussion to have any inter faith dialogue. Sad it may feels, and pain it may seems..the politician are no way way trying to pave for non-Muslims like ourselves to have a conversation, and we are not even questioning on the issue of Islam.
If we were called with derogotary names to go back India, and Chinese to China, I think the Malay politician has one thing in mind is make sure racial sentiments must be attained in all cost by making sure inter faith dialogues must not prevail at all cost. It's rather ironic for a Malay man of your stature to teach about religion, to the American students, and yet in the country of your origin where your fellow men do not want to give us the space to have an open discussion, without having to resort to violent and anger. I guess you had attain the spectrum of your objectives to show something to the American students, and yet here in Malaysian "we" Indians and Chinese are still grappled with hate and anger from your fellow men not even for an open discussions.
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written by little dragon, August 11, 2008 14:22:56
when u hv influential religious characters like nik aziz coming out strongly against any interfaith dialog, wat room is there to discuss? it leaves one to wonder watever happened to good 'ol "muzakarah" or "muqabalah" or watever u want to call it.
wat ppl like him refuses to understand is dat interfaith dialog is not a discourse in comparative religion nor is it a game of one-upsmanship to show out one's religion.
interfaith dialog is a quest for HARMONY among d followers of different faiths. while i hv no doubt nik aziz is one who cherishes harmony but unfortunately to him it must b harmony strictly n fully on islamic terms. itu macam apa mau cakap lagi?
also dat wud make it a monologue n not a dialog, wudn't it?.
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written by mawi, August 11, 2008 15:01:20
Dr Azly had put things in its very right perspective. What he says , basically , can be summarize by the fact that when the situation is conducive and proper, interfaith dialodues can even be held in lecture rooms minus all those unnecessary commotions. Bar Council had failed to see this. Yes, we have interfaith frictions here and there and yes we do need to sit down and discuss about this in a civilised manner. But the problem here is that, both the Bar Council as well as the protestors are uncivilised and the Bar Council, being the instigators to this whole episode has got no one else to blame but themselves. They would like to think that they are intelligent and civilised enough to tackle the issues but obviously they are not able to contain what was already expected. It was like as if , the whole episode was concocted .
We, as the public at large, must not get ourselves be carried away with the schemes of these uncivilised people and adding fuel to the fire started by the bar council through these intimidating threads is not helping but rather worsening the calamity.
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written by Comodo, August 11, 2008 15:05:01
Why some Muslims are so afraid for interfaith discussion? Can’t they accept the truth or they are not smart enough to understand the speech? Or are they afraid that all the malays will convert to other religious just by listening or attending the forum? What’s wrong even if they choose to convert, don’t people have choices to choose what to believe and not? Is Islam is one way street? How if those days our ancestor’s religions forbid conversion, will Islam presence in these days?
I was talking to my malay friend today, funny!!, the only things he know is ‘orang lain tak de hak nak soal hak Kedaulatan Melayu dan Islam’, that’s what he hear and understand from news. Why are we having so many buffalos around? We are civilized and should be looking/thinking out of box. EVERYTHING is wrong with our Government and education system!!!.
RPK, you should be our next EDUCATION MINISTER , so you can produce more rakyat like you. MALAYSIA need more people like you. Not buffalos and lead by ……..!!!
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written by harmanamri, August 11, 2008 15:05:13
Why wasn't the forum jointly organized by the Bar Council and IKIM? Several months back, the Director of IKIM Dr al-Attas himself spoke openly about the problem, how Islamic converts must settle their "pre-Islam" marriage issues in the civil courts and not use conversion to Islam as a convenient way to get out of their marriage responsibilities. The way I see it, these are legal issues, not about religion or faith.
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written by Comodo, August 11, 2008 15:08:45
Dear Mawi, What BAR COUNCIL done is correct. Today we see so many opinion in MT just because of them. Some how somebody have to start it, BAR COUNCIL is the correct body, since they know the laws.
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written by SUV, August 11, 2008 15:45:24
and is d k0k o phoney vaithalingam,d cheif priest of tao,hindu,buddhism,kristianiti is d right man to tok about interfaith bla bla bla?..why not engage a yogi or a mystic frm say india/paakistan..they r the ones who dive deep,discovering,experincing the alpha omgea,the whole essence of the spirit that gave birth to religions
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written by SUV, August 11, 2008 15:57:49
is possible to to talk about unity,briding the gulf,if essence of a religion is not understood?..ini payah ni..susah..take for instance seculaist point of view of unity..all r equal,semua sama sama,but what's the quality of equality in the kingdom of allah/brahmna/tao?tao,shunya(zero) falsafah is about reacing an aspect of the supreme absolute,where all idividulaity vanishes,and dat the supreme,silence,void as THE ONE is true..and then we have in the sanatana dharma,where its recorded triple status of unity of the supreme and in the quran ,we witness manifestation of the 2nd poise of the supermind(me thinks..(all dwells in everything,instant knowledge of past present future in a single frame,extending across time n space)..boleh panik oo if we dive deep
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written by snipersnake, August 11, 2008 16:24:52
the thing is these kind of forums are OKAY, to understand and identify the meeting points of the faiths. But when it becomes a place to question and undermine Islam as the offical religion of this country, now thats a problem.
Thats why muslims need to have strong speakers that can clear all doubts and the participant must be honest, to seek the truth, not to undermind Islam.
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written by mucking fuddled, August 11, 2008 16:40:39
dear dr. azly rahman,
But then again, education is about hope, peace, empathy, intelligence, and liberation -- these we must use as a basis for a new design once we see major restructuring efforts under way, undertaken perhaps via a new political, social, and educational arrangement
the very fact that you are writing from abroad goes to show how contrived our instituitions of higher learning are over here.....
i bet my bottom ringgit your lectures would not be highly appreciated or comprehended in any of our so called instituitions of higher learning where progressive thinking are politically controlled......
we spend millions every year to churn out scholars that are half baked that will only fit nicely into other countries middle school but they are highly acclaimed in our politically controlled universities and corporations......
and with bigots like zulkifli noordin still in our midst (another lawyer spewed out from our local academia ) i think you will have to keep educating us from abroad for another century....lets hope you live that long.....
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written by snipersnake, August 11, 2008 17:07:41
to the above poster:
See? This kind of stereotype is what holding the thing from going on.
Good, assume some more.
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written by Birdbrain, August 11, 2008 17:29:17
If there's a God in the sky looking down,
What can he think of what we've done,
To the world that he created?
Freddie Mercury
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written by Tompios, August 11, 2008 17:43:49
Yess!! Queen -freddie mercury is an Arab man. The late freddie mercury finally see the true meaning of human being.
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written by mawi, August 11, 2008 17:46:35
Comodo, the Bar Council is so right an organisation to organise the forum and as much right as ask Maestro Production to organise thr Avril Lavine's concert . What was wrong was not the pick of the organisers but the inexperience and the inadequacies of the Bar Council to make its preparations for the forum. There was no organised planning, no discussions held on the possible consequence. There was no proper studies on affirmative possibilities and there not even a detail discussion on hw to facilitate possible outcomes. Apparently, it was just one of those things that they do and just see what the outcome is and if the Muslims get angry, take the easy way out and embarass the religion and its followers.
What they were about to do is something revolutionary, and it was indeed a very sensitive issue that would affect the peace and harmony of the country at large. If it was one of those nasty and insinuating comments by the likes of people like FFT , it would have been written off as one of those Gila Babi who has nothing better to do other than indulge in self pleasure by posting its rants and nonsense.
But this is the Bar Council. irstly, they failed to paint or impress upon the public at large that the open forum is all about Islam . They stress more on the constitution which means that the very first approach is already doomed. Then Mr Reganath went public to ease the tension when it could have been someone more appropriate to the intended crowd. Mr Reganath did nothing else other than incite futher hatred on the open forum by painting a picture the the general Muslim population that here is this Non Islamic group trying to tell the Muslims what the Muslims can and cannot do.
For all intent and purpose, it was not professionally handle even before the forum began and now they are bonkering and puzzled on what to do next. By the way, it tooks years and pains for China to become host for the Olympics and further vhardship and pain to make it a success. Unlike the Bar Council, they came prepared. If you just bullldozed , then take responsibility to understand the outcome rather than just point fingers. ask yourself, what have you done which is not correct rather that just telling people how they should behave. the outcome unexpected and
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written by notsosmart, August 11, 2008 18:49:48
With the barbaric behaviour of some Malay Muslim still unregulated and suppressed. Let us all forget about interfaith dialogue in Malaysia. Stop DREAMING all of you.
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written by dassky2000, August 11, 2008 19:24:06
Thank you Doctor Azly Rahman, I see another good muslim next to RPK.
Yes, Ketuanan Melayu MUST go, even the illegal immigrant from the neighbouring countries are enjoying rights of ketuanan melayu with dubious MYKADS. Get reed of all these special privilages for so called BUMIPUTRAS.
" Please don't refer me to as a BUMIPUTRA as I feel handicaped " spoken by a malay muslim professor of a local university.
Only handicaps ask for alms as they could not perform like an ordinary healthy human being.
So my fren, please leave the handicaps alone, let them be what they want to be. Only god and time can change them.
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written by peace, August 11, 2008 20:06:16
Ello Mawi dan SUV, Tuhan cipta semua manusia dengan adil dan saksama. Semua ade otak, mata, telinga, mulut dan lain2. Kenapa aksi orang melayu balik2 nak minta tolong dari kerajaan walaupun kerajaan sudah tolong mereka selama ini? Sebab melayu cacat ke atau ape? Kenapa bangsa yang lain tiada masalah?
Tuhan cakap semua insan di dunia ialah sama dan adil dan tidak pilih kasih pun? Kenapa bangsa melayu ni sikit2 nak gaduh, nak buat kecoh? Mereka sepatutnya gunakan otak mereka dibagikan oleh Tuhan untuk berkifir, berunding, bukan untuk buat kecoh! Faham ker? Ada baca civik tak di sekolah? Kalau tiada, tanya lah hisapmudin.
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written by aris, August 11, 2008 20:06:33
We claim 92 % literacy rate, which mean Malaysians are supposed to be a thinking lot. What we are witnessing is that Muslims are too preoccupied with finding Islamic principles in every aspect of human activity in the country. It is no different in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Sudan and elsewhere in the Muslim world. Is anything wrong with that?
There is no non-Muslim threat to Islam in Malaysia or elsewhere. For more than 1400 years (non-Muslims) Chinese and Indians and Muslims elsewhere have co-existed. There is no evidence of a politically motivated religious war waged by China and India against Islamic countries at any time in history. There was no need for it because India and China are COMPLETE civilisations –they have everything they need in their own countries. There is no need for Islam in their lives at all. As such Chinese and Indian communities in Malaysia too cannot be a threat to Islam.
Occasionally, some non-Muslims choose to embrace Islam on their own free will. However, such conversions must be free of encumbrances for the convert’s non-Muslim family members. What it means is that Islam must be flexible enough to respect other faiths in the country and being the dominant religion ensures that the non-Muslim spouse and children of the convert get a fair deal according to civil laws of the land. It is inhuman to subject non-Muslims to laws that are alien to them.
I think the Malay Muslims of Malaysia are capable of greater achievements. There is more to life than just religion. It is understandable that for the Muslims everything is CENTERED on their religion but for the non-Muslims religion is important but not central to their existence. Clearly there is a conflict in the way Muslims and non-Muslims view religion in their lives.
Everyone knows China and India are surging ahead, making quantum leaps in almost everything they do. Malaysia will not keep pace with their achievements if the focus remains locked on religion and nothing else. As long as the Malays keep themselves preoccupied with religion there is a danger they may be left behind. Look at Japan’s phenomenal achievements. Japan, roughly the same size as Malaysia rose from the ashes for two atomic bombs to become an economic powerhouse in the world within a span of 50 years. It was not their religion but rather their resilience (inherent in their culture) that saw them through the difficult times. What the Malay Muslims should do is to emulate the Japanese success and learn to be competitive.
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written by Thian, August 11, 2008 20:32:59
Snipersnake,
"Thats why muslims need to have strong speakers that can clear all doubts and the participant must be honest, to seek the truth, not to undermind Islam."
To precondition is bad faith already.
To have a dialogue is to discuss, understand and allow participants an opportunity to raise their consciousness and share their experiences; and not a competition to who is more right to defend or to propagate. If the purpose is to competition go see Olympics. It is more correct.
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written by Dr Azly Rahman, August 11, 2008 21:47:50
Great discussions, folks, keep them coming.
Thank you for posting comments to promote peace and understanding. We need this now and we do not need anyone telling each other to go back to this or that country or to where they belong. We live in a world that belongs to the Creator and with our rightful Malaysian citizenship, we deserve to be treated as equal, to be heard, and to have the right to be safe and secure.
Moments like these, we will see chaos being orchestrated, so that the nation will be divided and easier to be ruled. We must continue to make sure that we do not fall into the trap of hating each other. No Islamic, Christian, Catholic, Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, Bahai, etc. teaching tells us to call each other names. This we must teach our children how to understand each other so that life can be guarded.
By the way "birdbrain" and "tompias" --- Freddy Mercury of the great rock group QUEEN is actually from India, grew up in Zanzibar, went to art school in London, discovered by the great guitarist Brian May, had a fantastic operatic voice range, played down his Indian-ness for success, took up the stage name "Freddy Mercury", and is a Bahai. BTW--- Brian May the guitarist recently got his Ph.D in astrophysics (he left the field 30 years ago to pursue rock music, became hugely sucessful) became a professor of astrophysics and appointed Vice Chancellor of London Polytechnique!
Freddy Mercury had a beautiful voice indeed. Queen's greatest albums to me are Night at the Opera and Day at The Races.
Back to our dialogue...
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written by Anti Jihadist, August 11, 2008 21:50:26
You 'interfaith' if you want to. This gentleman is not for 'interfaithing'!
Ex nihilo nihil fit
After the shocking news that “home grown” Muslim “terrorists” (more rightfully called jihadis) planned to blow up nine aircraft full of passengers mid-flight over US metropolitan areas which would have killed thousands of innocent people (mostly infidels in their eyes) – in other words, mass murder of enormous proportions – there have been renewed calls for more interfaith dialogue with “our Muslim brothers and sisters”. These calls for more interfaith dialogue are naïve at best, downright stupid, dangerous and appeasing at worst.
One engages in dialogue with people who are yielding enough, with people who are willing enough to shift their opinions somewhat, in order to be able to reach a compromise. Muslims are totally and utterly unyielding. There can be no compromise with them. None at all! They believe they are right. They believe they are God’s (more correctly Allah’s) chosen people, the people who have a monopoly on the truth. They believe that we are inferior beings to them simply because we do not belong to their faith group, because we have not accepted Muhammad as the final messenger of Allah. Further, they believe that we are unclean and unworthy. Their stated aim is to take over the world, to Islamize it. This is the aim of jihad. How can one engage successfully in dialogue with such people?
To engage in dialogue with Muslims is a futile exercise. Nothing will come out of it. Ex niliho nihil fit. This is not a defeatist attitude; rather, it is a realistic one. Islam is out to dominate the world, out to supersede Christianity as the only worthy faith, and out to annihilate Israel and the Jews. With such people, one does not engage in dialogue; rather, one fights them, one thwarts their ambitions, one vanquishes them.
In any case, what is there to discuss? Muslims deny all the basic tenets of Christianity: They deny that Jesus was the Son of God; they deny that Jesus was crucified (hence the cross is anathema to them); they deny that true Salvation can be found only when one accepts Jesus as one’s Redeemer; indeed, they deny that Jesus is the Christ.
If someone doesn’t believe in these basic tenets of our faith, then there is absolutely nothing to talk about.
In actual fact, Muslims believe that Islam is the perfection of religion for man for all time. They believe that Muhammad came to bring this perfection about. They believe that Muhammad was the ultimate prophet of Allah, and that Jesus was the penultimate one. Jesus is therefore a lesser ‘prophet’ in their eyes than Muhammad is. This should surely be anathema to Church leaders; but it apparently is not. So dilute has our faith become in the eyes of the Church elders!
***
Do churchmen not know that every country in which Islam has put down roots it has eventually taken over and snuffed out Christianity almost for good. Egypt, Libya, Syria, and the Lebanon are good cases in point. Yes, there are still some Christians left in some of these countries – just – but these countries are now Islamic, and the indigenous populations are minorities in their own lands. Christianity never thrives where Islam takes hold. So what on earth are our Church leaders aiding this process of our own destruction for...?
Interfaith dialogue with Muslims is a waste of time and effort. So I do not believe in it; rather, I believe in thwarting the enemy within, and making them submit to our way of life. After all, if they don’t like it here, then they are free to leave and find other pastures. Nobody is keeping them here; and there is easy access to airports throughout the UK. This is true not only for the UK, but for other Western countries, too. In fact, I would hazard a guess and say that the vast majority of Westerners would be relieved if they did leave, since hell will freeze over before Muslims integrate!
***
...this is not so much a “war on terror”, but a ‘war on the jihad’, the jihad which is out to annihilate us, and annihilate freedom and democracy, and annihilate all that the West stands for. This is indeed a battle between two civilizations. In such a battle, there is no room for dialogue, there is room only for victory. For, as Churchill so wisely stated during the Second World War, “without victory, there is no survival”. That, ladies and gentlemen, is why I say: You ‘interfaith' if you want to. This gentleman is not for ‘interfaithing’!
©2006 Mark Alexander
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written by pedagogical, August 11, 2008 22:26:47
It might be good if the Chinese & Indians if they go out of Malaysia....it will teach those fanatics...for goodness sake,if it weren't for the chinese,the malaysian economy does not exist at all...and we would not have heard of roti canai...and malaysia would not even reach the status of one of the biggest prducer of palm oils if it weren't for those hard working indians who were willing to work in the estates when the malays weren't willing to do so...and now they're whining that the non malays are out to "mencabar" them & now threatening these poor people??
Belajar tinggi tinggi,yet has the smallest brain I've ever seen....itulah babi yg sebenarnya...."suka menyerang secara membabi buta"
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written by rakyatmalaysia, August 11, 2008 23:08:10
i'm not sure.. when will our malays brethren will open their mind and out of their katak dibawah tempurung attitude.
i'm sad for them. Malaysia... truly asia.. my foot.
better call it Malaysia truly Islamaphobia.
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written by khongja, August 12, 2008 00:27:39
simple! next time have the forum in Singapore.Less problem and i dont think those umno goons will ever cause so much a squeak if ever they are there.Singapore will not be too kind to rabble rousers!
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written by chezzter, August 12, 2008 00:29:59
The reality is the nation has not reached the level of maturity to approach inter-faith dialogue. Whatever justification for holding such forums only serve to invite unwarranted actions whenever such forums are conducted. Until the powers that be and all, are matured and open minded, good intentions only serve to provide platform for chaos. Will holding such forums result in better understanding when there is so much inferiority complex around? There is nothing wrong with Bar Council, perhaps could have exercised better foresight. Know where the best pork chops are? smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif
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written by Loonie, August 12, 2008 00:30:27
In Canada where I work in the largest school district, we have a zero tolerance towards any form of discrimination among students. Students are taught from elementary years their universal rights as an individual regardless of racial background, religion or culture. There are laws to protect visible minority groups, not like Malaysia where laws are in place to protect the majority and bully the minority groups into silence. Dr. Azly's dream could only materialize in Malaysia if tolerance was taught in schools from kindergarten. Shame on the Malaysian government who merely wants to keep its people (more so Muslims) in a box just so to keep greedy politicians in power. I have a number of Muslim friends from Kuwait, Fiji, you name it; they are so warm and open about any discussion or dialogue on Islam. They just explain why they believe what they believe. There's no need to defend anything. It's so beautiful to see how they carry themselves as believers in Islam. The Malaysian Muslims are so different, in a negative sense.
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written by Edward C, August 12, 2008 00:37:08
Dr Azly Rahman, Congratulations to you and your wonderfully written article. I enjoy reading it and am actually jealous and envious over what you have been doing.
I enjoy learning about other faith. I engage in discussion with my friends from other faith constantly. Everytime I speak to them, I go away enlightened because if religion is expressed in the manner which I share views with my friends, I think we will all be living in a perfect world.
When we discuss, there are no hostility! Just a desire to learn and understand. Wouldn't that be nice???
The unfortunate scenario we have is that there are certain quarters whom has distorted the vision of religion to control the masses. Being less educated and also "not bothered" to find the truth, these group of easily controlled masses chose the easy way out.
Since it came from a "holy" person, what he say must be true. Because it was spoken in stereo meaning, it is up to the listener to interpret and guess what, 90% of the time, the interpretation is wrong. These people become ill informed and they do stupid things.
The world is full of such people from all kinds of faith. So it is an uphill task to educate them. But there is no other way except education and dissemination of information by people whom are impartial.
Take for example what is going on today on the internet. You friend receives a message indicating some sort of VIRUS will attack 85% of the computers on September 11 2008. Without checking the authenticity of the message, it will be forwarded to more than 1,000,000 people in a few hours at the most. All it will take is for the first fella who receives the email to check the authenticity of the message to discover it is a hoax. But people chose the easy way out.
Such is the mentality of the people living in the world. Therefore, you can see how easy it is to control these masses.
The only salvation for mankind is EDUCATION. There is no other way.
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written by Loonie, August 12, 2008 00:45:04
In Canada, there's a TV channel which is devoted to air programs of different faiths. There are also programs that televise interfaith dialogues. In fact after 9/11, there are more interfaith dialogue programs televised to educate the public (especially non Muslims) about Islam. If there was any incident occupying in other parts of the world which might negatively affect Canadian Muslims, the Canadian police force would be speedily mobilized to protect Muslim group. What a fair political and a beautiful social justice system. No wonder Canada has been voted many times the best country to live in.
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written by Loonie, August 12, 2008 00:46:25
typo error - "occupying" should be read as "occurring".
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written by Loonie, August 12, 2008 00:59:34
By the way, look at the picture in the media on how a "terrorist" was allowed to stormed into the forum shouting and calling for Chinese and Indians to go to hell, escorted by a policeman?!!??!! Wasn't that scenario an instant catalyst to racial tension? Was he detained under ISA? I guess not, PM still sleeping.
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written by benny loh, August 12, 2008 01:35:11
"HOLY" COW!
http://malaysiancartoons.blogs...y-cow.html
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written by mucking fuddled, August 12, 2008 02:11:09
dear edward c
i couldn't agree with you more.....the only salvation for mankind is EDUCATION, there is no other way, BUT......
how do you educate those who still wish they are living in their prophet's era and those who think that getting too well educated might contradict their prophet's teachings or worse still realise the TRUTH.......
you will be surprised there are millions out there with such mentality
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written by FFT, August 12, 2008 04:02:17
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written by ROBERTNGTG, August 12, 2008 08:06:33
The future of our interfaith dialogue
DR. AZLY, YOU SHOULD HV MET AND HV A TRUE DIALOGUE WITH THE REKNOWN PROF. N RADHAKRISHNAN WHO HAS SHOWN THE WORLD HOW SUCH DIALOGUE SHOULD BE CONDUCTED AND THIS COUNTRY'S LEADERS SHOULD LEARN THE TRUE MEANING OF PEACE, EDUCATION AND HUMANISM. BUT TOO BAD IF ALL WE HAVE ARE CORRUPTED LEADERS WHO ONLY ARE INTERESTED IN LINING THEIR POCKETS AND THEIR OWN SELF PRESERVATION. HOPEFULLY, PR WILL BE ABLE TO DO SO.
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written by Birdbrain, August 12, 2008 09:52:39
Dear Dr.Azly
Since you love Queen and I also believe you love the Opera too. A special dedication to you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...re=related
Too much love will kill you
If you can't make up your mind
Torn between the lover
And the love you leave behind
You're headed for disaster
cos you never read the signs
Too much love will kill you
Every time
Too much love in Ketuanan Melayu is killing the faith in the religion. UMNO is greater than the religion? The race is greater than the religion?
Questions which can only be answered by those in power right now!
Cheers........
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written by Dr Azly Rahman, August 12, 2008 10:18:54
Gee thanks for the dedication, "birdbrain".
Wonder if you could post Queen's "Under Pressure" (with David Bowie) as a theme song for Permatang Pauh!
Yes, "Ketuanan Melayu" is too much of "tough love". I have written quite a bit in it. Please refer to previous article in our "Republic".
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written by SUV, August 12, 2008 11:39:48
due to colonisation/westernization/modernisation,spiritual inquiry has dissapread in asian countires..what we have in place is mumbo jumbo unity talks,led by politcians,dim wit imams,puruhits,and materialist secularits...dis is a fact..yes,the unity mentionned int he quran,the vedas/upanishads,n buddhism ,involves only human beings kah?
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written by SUV, August 12, 2008 11:46:55
does dr.radhakrishnan know about spiritual dynamics..man,in the 2oth century,india for instance produced couple of spitual giants and the tragedy is due to ignorance,and lack of courage,we "merry go round the bush,round the bush in a dark hole...hah,me thinks guru pitka makes more sense then gandhi n radhakrishna smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/cool.gif
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written by SUV, August 12, 2008 12:07:13
the only salvation for mankind is EDUCATION
yes,n no..realistian is more concrete n rock solid.speaking of "union",have u all heard of the story of ramakrishna n kereta lembu?ramakrishna saw a keleta lembu apparoching his lumah lah..n the next moment his saw the pengala lembu whip the the lembulah..the momemnt the whip landed on d lembu's back,ramkrishna screamed in pain,n his helper saw a whip mark on ramkrishnas back..dats right..all in one,one in all,dats d message in quran,which muslims themselves dont know...dats the 2nd postion of supramnetal status..dats d reason why,spitual giant vivekanamda has bold decleared the union of these 2 system,vedantic brain,islamic body..becuase they r essentially same..in fact,islam brought back the truth of vedanta after 1000 years of buddhism,which regarded the the abolute silence of nothingness,as the supreme real,rest all mirage,illusion,including ourselves..this imbalnce had to be corrected,and in came islam..and as result,we see,we read,corfirmation of the abolute and also projection n mafestation of the supreme/absolute in everything and everywhere..the world n everything else is real,its true,its part of allah..
Allah, there is no object worthy of worship but Him; the Ever Living, the Self-Subsisting and All-Sustaining. Slumber siezes Him not, nor sleep. Unto Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them; and none can encompass any of His Knowledge except what He pleases. His Throne (Knowledge and Authority) extends over the heavens and the earth; and the care of them burdens Him not; and He is the Supreme, the Greatest.
The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 2, Verse 255
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written by shamsul siahaan, August 12, 2008 12:15:34
I don’t understand why non-Muslims are so bent on discussing matters that specifically relate to Islam and Muslims. The Qur’an has categorically said, “Your religion is unto yours, my religion is unto mine.” As such, true to the teachings of the Holy Qur’an, Islam does not interfere with the affairs of other religions and likewise, Islam expects the same treatment from adherents of other religions. In this context, it makes me wonder why the Bar Council took pains in organizing a forum (or whatever you call it) to discuss matters relating to Conversion to Islam. Conversion to Islam is a simple matter. In the first place, there’s no compulsion to be one. The only requirement is that, before becoming a Muslim, a person must accept the fact it is a one-way ticket journey. In other words, the convert already knows what is in store for him/her. That includes the situation of the spouse who is not converting to Islam, the question of property division, the children’s religion and burial upon death. Not to forget the highly-charged situation of converts who leave Islam. Let me repeat. It’s one way ticket! So why create problems by organizing such a forum? All these hoorah about intellectual discourse is getting us nowhere.You may call me a one-track mind of sorts. So what? I don’t interfere with the religious affairs of the non-Muslims. So why just not leave it at that?
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written by SUV, August 12, 2008 12:25:42
BEHOLD, We have created you all out of a male and a female,
and have made you into nations and tribes, so that you might come to know one another...
This community of yours is one single community,
since I am the Sustainer of you all: remain, then, conscious of me.
Qur'an 49:13, 23:52
so shamsul,whats d meaning of this verse..
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written by SUV, August 12, 2008 12:30:16
ya,all this talk about leaving dis or dat religion,entering dis or dat religion,is really ..bikin saya nak muntah aje..ini semua garbaje!! smilies/angry.gif..instead of making a serious effort in understnding spitual truth in every religion,we adopt cintan mee attitude n turn everything upside down
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written by mucking fuddled, August 12, 2008 13:01:43
shamsul siahaan,
what more can we say........you already admit you have a one track mind....
what a simpleton you are.....
you think EVERYONE should and must know what you have just explained to us....its typical isn't it, you ASSUME everyone knows and therfore should not question.......
how can you further islam with such attitude to those ignorant of your islamic laws.....
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written by SUV, August 12, 2008 14:54:34
hey mucking fuddles,u a m0ron or wat?i understnd shamsuls concerns..do u mucking m0ron?
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written by SUV, August 12, 2008 14:57:05
dats d trouble with kaisu bums..they accuse others of having one track mind but fail to realise that by uttering those words,they themselves r cowdungs..
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written by teo siew chin, August 12, 2008 15:21:43
The nation's best hope is that there are lesser 'kaisu bums' eh SUV smilies/grin.gif
Shamsul believes that Islam is a one-way-ticket.
He is entitled to his belief.
And I know that Islam is a one-way-ticket.
That is the best we can do for ourselves - to be informed.
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written by skc, August 12, 2008 15:51:57
Dear All,
I am not a Muslim, and I am getting very confuse. I am not even a very strong buddist. Is it so easy to undermine Islam ? I mean if someone bad mouth buddist way of life or teaching, do all buddist people change their religion overnight ? This bar council thingy and the reaction of some people is way beyond my poor mind to comprehend, what is the problem, if someone bad mouth Islam does that make prophet Muhammad any less real ? If someone bad mouth Islam does that make what prophet Muhammad say before is now not valid ? WHAT IS THE PROBLEM ?
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written by skc, August 12, 2008 15:55:30
Maybe most Malaysian mislim do not believe Prophet Muhammad at all. Hey if I believe he is my prophet, then nothing u say will make any differents, I will follow what my prophet says and pratice my religion as it is suppose to be, fair to all and respect everything.
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written by skc, August 12, 2008 15:58:23
You of no faith, stop trying to do evil in my name, for those like you I have a very special place all nicely plan out for you.
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written by skc, August 12, 2008 16:00:00
Islam is a religion for all mankind, anyone who says differently is sure to have a one way trip to hell.
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written by shamsul siahaan, August 12, 2008 18:14:42
written by SUV, August 12, 2008 | 12:25:42
BEHOLD, We have created you all out of a male and a female,
and have made you into nations and tribes, so that you might come to know one another...
This community of yours is one single community,
since I am the Sustainer of you all: remain, then, conscious of me.
Qur'an 49:13, 23:52
so shamsul,whats d meaning of this verse..
Simple. Allah requires that you try to know one another, have respect for one another and do not interfere with the affairs of one another. Islam is so simple. It’s just that we human beings, whatever our religious beliefs are, who make it difficult, unnecessarily.
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written by shamsul siahaan, August 12, 2008 18:16:16
written by teo siew chin, August 12, 2008 | 15:21:43
The nation's best hope is that there are lesser 'kaisu bums' eh SUV
Shamsul believes that Islam is a one-way-ticket.
He is entitled to his belief.
And I know that Islam is a one-way-ticket.
That is the best we can do for ourselves - to be informed.
*****************************************************
Rightly so.
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written by shamsul siahaan, August 12, 2008 18:22:13
written by mucking fuddled, August 12, 2008 | 13:01:43
shamsul siahaan,
what more can we say........you already admit you have a one track mind....
what a simpleton you are.....
you think EVERYONE should and must know what you have just explained to us....its typical isn't it, you ASSUME everyone knows and therfore should not question.......
how can you further islam with such attitude to those ignorant of your islamic laws.....
******************************************************* ********************
When Prophet Muhammad (SAW) gave lectures on Islam and related subjects, they were attended not only by the handful of Muslims (new converts themselves) but also the Jews and Christians and other non-believers (pl do not get offended when I say non-believers). Likewise, Muslims are expected to reach out to non-believers all the time until the end of the world. So, please come over to the mosques to listen to our kuliyyah. You're most welcome. No offence intended.
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written by OrdinaryMan, August 12, 2008 21:34:28
What will happen if the whole world is converted to Islam. All peoples in the world are now brothers and sisters under Allah. You think there will be peace?
Then there will be different sects of Muslims. Then it will be (as it already has) Muslims killing Muslims.
So what the heck!
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written by cubi76, August 13, 2008 08:46:02
I respect shamsul as a muslim to welcome non-muslims to the mosque to listen to kuliyyah. That's actually a good example to promote interfaith understanding.
But at the same time, I dont agree with his view that it's meaningless for Bar Council to hold interfaith dialogue/forum. To a Muslim, he/she might not have realised the problems a family faces when there's any member converted into Islam. But one should not assume that there's no such problem existed. Not knowing it, doesnt mean there's
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written by teo siew chin, August 13, 2008 09:44:58
"... the problems a family faces when there's any member converted..."
-----------------------
Dear Cubi76 - the problems come under the purview of "LAW" i.e. what is the legal position of the parties concerned.
This country has Syariah Law for muslims and Civil Law for nons.
With the fast-changing times and circumstances, these 2 Laws must complement each other, NOT supercede each other.
To come to a consensus, it is the LAW-MAKERS who must dialog/discuss and come up with maybe new laws that does not confuse, worry the rakyat.
As for 'interfaith' dialogs - come, shall we dialog here?
No fists, voices, key-pads shall be raised! And no CAPITALS please!
ok?
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written by snipersnake, August 13, 2008 09:55:11
I am with brother Shamsul on this one.
I am too wondering, why do non Muslims like to discuss things that doesnt matter to them, among themselves?
And like a poster above, I second his notion. If you guys REALLY want to know whats going on etc, come to the local mosque and participate in the public lecture.
Instead of discussing it with so called 'ustaz' deal with the real deal in your local mosques. It shows that you guys are sincere.
And to the poster that said why does Muslim mind verbal attacks on Muhammad etc, its like this.
Muslims love Allah and love Muhammad. We do not like people slanders towards our love.Just like you guys when you guys hate it when people mock your race.
When people mock your race, does it make you ,less chinese, indians, malays, ibans etc? Yet you are angry.
Same case here. Lets not be hypocrates.
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written by shamsul siahaan, August 13, 2008 10:05:04
written by OrdinaryMan, August 12, 2008 | 21:34:28
What will happen if the whole world is converted to Islam. All peoples in the world are now brothers and sisters under Allah. You think there will be peace?
Then there will be different sects of Muslims. Then it will be (as it already has) Muslims killing Muslims.
So what the heck!
******************************************************* *********************
It will never happen. Why? Allah (or if you prefer God) sent down 25 prophets (including Noah, Job, Zechariah, Abraham, David, Solomon, Moses, Isa or Jesus, if you prefer, and lastly Muhammad) and thousands of minor prophets to bring human beings, who consistently go wayward, back to the right path.
I am sure you are aware of the Sodom and Gomorrah episode, Noah’s Ark, Pharaoh’s persecution of the Israelites and events leading to the supposedly crucifixion of Jesus, just to name a few. These are examples of human beings going against God’s command.
For your information, humans who believe in the Oneness of God, right from Adam until the last human being on earth, according to Islam, are themselves Muslims (much to the dislike and disdain of a lot of people), subject to the condition that they conform to the teachings of the prophets current to their times. Islam means “submission to God” and those who submit to God are termed as Muslims.
Well, will there be peace if the entire world population converts to Islam? The answer is NO. And how about Muslims killing other Muslims? What is so extraordinary about that? Just like in class of 40, there tend to be good and bad pupils. The teacher has to do his best to make them all good but he’ll never be 100% successful, although the intention is good.
So what the heck? The heck is for all of us to try to be in the group of good pupils and find the right path to God.
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written by skc, August 13, 2008 10:21:21
Dear snipersnake,
Why must you think that other people will automatically say bad things about Islam when they discuss it out of a mosques ?
Here is something I also do not understand :- "why do non Muslims like to discuss things that doesnt matter to them, among themselves" ????? You mean people should not discuss things ? How else do we learn ? So you are telling me that your ideal of a muslim is not to discuss anything unless it only affects them ??????
Dear Dr Azly,
With this type of learning method, where will we be in the next 50 years ???
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written by snipersnake, August 13, 2008 10:34:16
Dear SKC
It all boils down to sincerity. If you want to get the truth, use the proper channel thru the correct connection.
Let me ask you, how can a group of people which are not Muslims in the first place discuss about the syariah?
Do you know, to understand syariah you must have knowledge in Islamic jurisprudence and advance in Arabic languange.
And most of the syariah laws take example of the incident that happened during the prophet's time and his companions.
We never meddle in other people's faiths and issues, why should other people question this and that about our faith?
Di ni dini wa di nuka dinuka - My faith is mine and yours is yours.
Lets just respect each other and live peacefully.
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written by skc, August 13, 2008 10:34:52
Dear TSC,
How do you proposed we start this interfaith dialog ? Actually the root cause must be address first, all those converting to Islam must first be believers of Allah and the prophet Muhammad, if people just convert for any other motives, they must not be allow to do so. I am not so sure what Muslim think, but to me this is abusing the Islamic religion. Even as a non-Muslim, I feel that abusing is always a bad thing, we should not allow people to abuse anything, let alone our national religion. What say you ?
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written by skc, August 13, 2008 10:48:50
Dear snipersnake,
There is no proper channel, not as we human knows it, hey we are talking about a religion here man. The Iman in your mosques is just as human as you are, what makes his interpretation more right then yours ? The most important thing is that you yourself do what you believe is right, else we will not call this a religion, have faith, always to have faith, and remember it is not proof that we are looking for, else religion is truly dead in Malaysia.
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written by skc, August 13, 2008 11:01:17
In this confuse world we live in, having complete faith is the best thing to have. You know what you are doing is right, even if they put you in jail, charge you under ISA, try to silence you in all and any way they can think of, even up to the extend that they might kill you.
To a person like above, you think a interfaith discussion amount non Muslim and Muslim matters to him/her ? Do you think it matters whatever that might have been say or not say between people that is not even know to him/her in the first place about his/her religion ?
If your faith is so weak, then I suggest that you do something about it. Go talk to Allah and ask for his help, actually someone very learned in the Islam religion once told me, you can see Allah's work and his intention for you everyday of your life, you only need to open your eyes to see it. Think about it.
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written by shamsul siahaan, August 13, 2008 11:08:07
written by cubi76, August 13, 2008 | 08:46:02
But at the same time, I dont agree with his view that it's meaningless for Bar Council to hold interfaith dialogue/forum. To a Muslim, he/she might not have realised the problems a family faces when there's any member converted into Islam. But one should not assume that there's no such problem existed. Not knowing it, doesnt mean there's
******************************************************* *************************
Dear bro/sis,
Let’s be practical. The condition in our country is not conducive, at least not as yet. As a body consisting of intellectuals, how come the Bar Council is not cognitive of this situation? They should’ve given consideration to all angles and gave weights accordingly. I thought they fully understand that our society consists of groups of people whose interests sometimes come opposed to each other. After all, how much can the forum achieve vis-à-vis the Malaysian society as a whole? Wouldn’t be better for the Bar Council to have discussions directly with Islamic authorities concerned such as the Muslim lawyers association, Jakim, IIU etc who are well versed in Islamic Law?
Sure, I do accept that problems do exist when a member of non-Muslim family convert to Islam. I don’t pretend that there’s none. However, doesn’t this lend credence to a need to hold direct discussions with the relevant authorities.
I have a question to ask. How come non-Muslims families in Malaysia are more willing to accept their family members converting to religions other than Islam? The number doing so is reasonably high but never have we heard of any problem reported. Is conversion to other religions besides Islam is highly acceptable? To illustrate this, let me cite an incidence where an entire family of four who converted to Islam were murdered (this happened in Selangor about 5 years back). Rumours had it that members of their family were not happy that they converted to Islam and had them finished off. They are many more incidences which I think is better not to be related here.
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written by skc, August 13, 2008 11:14:06
Dear shamsul siahaan,
Yes a very interesting point, why when a Chinese convert from a buddist to a Christian, there is no issue, not as we know it when Islam is involved. Why ?
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written by skc, August 13, 2008 11:18:19
Actually there are problems when a Chinese convert from a buddist to a Christian, here is a good joke I have heard some time back :-
One guy just back from Australia after 4 years of study and converted to a Christian. During his first night at home at the dinner table, his mother got really angry with him. Why ?
Because he thank god for the food he provide, and forget to thank his mom in the same breath because his mom has work from morning till dinner to prepare all his favorite dishes.
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written by teo siew chin, August 13, 2008 11:24:42
What we all must acknowledge is that it is NOT easy to (1) make laws (2) merge laws.
The difference between Syariah and Civil laws are vast so essentially all lawyers especially syariah AND civil lawyers must meet with legislators to work out the problem and come to an amicable solution. It can be done as long as patience and tolerance are exercised.
Snipersnake - i do not think 'meddle' is the correct word to use. I am hurt that attempts to solve a real problem can be called 'meddling'. We must identify the problem with our heads and try our best to solve it not only with our heads but with our hearts. And please bear in mind that Syariah lawyers are involved in the discussions held by the Bar Council.
Dear SKC - laymen tend to be confused between Laws and morals. Laws are set by the legislators. Morals are set by social structures, religions...
And we cannot deny that many convert because of love for a person, not exactly love for the religion or even with complete knowledge of what the religion is all about. That aspect, we should not question - it's up to an individual.
But what is crucial is - what is the LEGAL standing of the convert and his non-converted family.
This is what needs to be addressed as soon as possible - the LEGAL aspect, not the moral aspect.
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written by carribeanking7, August 13, 2008 11:31:02
Only about 300 turned up, the day before the forum some bragged that they would gather 10, 000 people, also unlike Hindraf and bersih rallies where the police warned participants not to atten, this was a free for all with implied sanction from the DPM and police , yet only 300....
is this a sign that UMNO's race/religion rethoric has lost more ground than they think ? hmmmm interesting.
Did the Bar Council Made A Blunder in Organising the Forum in an Open Manner ?
No they did not make a blunder,though it was categorized as open,
you have to register to participate-this alone should keep out illeterate barbarians who cannot write their own name.
So if you were an illeterate barbarian, or a paid trouble maker- the police were supposed to arrest you for illegal assembly.
It seems that these misguided fanatics are in need of a reminder from the scriptures,
"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)."
(The Qur'an, Al Hujurat, 49: 13)
Regards
Vijay Kumar Mrugavell
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written by teo siew chin, August 13, 2008 11:50:57
Dear Shamsul - to a buddhist man, when he dies his heirs must light the joss-stick to honour him, must pray at his alter.. and other such rituals ingrained in the man's mind since days of yore and which brings dishonour to the family if not done by the heirs.
Does Islam allow a child-convert to do that to a non-convert father?
I think it is the same with hindus.
It must be admitted that the practitioners of Islam have not been giving out a lot of 'positive vibes' in this nation what with the body-snatching and midnite raids so it is going to take a lot of work to remove the negative impression of the religion by the nons.
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written by cubi76, August 13, 2008 11:54:14
Dear Shamsuul,
I'm sorry my comment was published only partly, therefore it reflects only bits and pieces.
My view is, Bar Council forum is a good place to promote interfaith understanding. Firstly, they DID invite scholars and representatives from Muslim community to take part in the forum. And, they are the expert in legal framework. Who's better than legal practicioners to discuss our legal framework?
Interfaith forum MUST be held. Because in Malaysia, both Syariah and Common law courts are recognised in our constitution. That Syariah court deals with Muslim welfare, and common law civil court deals with all other aspects of legal framework. Somehow, there were some issues arose when a member in a non-Muslim family converted into Islam faith. So what law shall we follow? Syariah or Common law? That's exactly the dialouge was all about.
It's not the issue of non-Muslim interfering Islamic welfare. It's about making clear of legal framework. We must remember that Malaysia is a multiracial country. Unless we sit down and clear all the clouds of religious and racial issues, it will always haunt us and hinders national unity. The sooner we clear all these issues, the better we would be.
Too, I would hope that MalayMuslim in this country will have more access to information on Islam and other religions. On this matter the Islam as a religion, everyone in other countries can have access to information on Islam, both apologist and critics. This is indeed a good thing to further understand your religion, and how others view your religion and their arguments. Somehow, our government especially the Information Ministry imposed ban on certain books/material that might deem sensitive to MalayMuslim. But by doing so, it prevents MalayMuslim from progressing further spiritually and better understand their religion.
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written by skc, August 13, 2008 11:58:13
Dear TSC,
Sorry for a minor disagreement, I am referring to those that is abusing Islam and not those who are converting due to higher things like love and so on. We must root them out first.. If the person covert due to love then there should not even be legal issues. If your parent covert, then as their children you should respect that and not even thinking of initiating legal procedure at all.
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written by skc, August 13, 2008 11:59:24
That is also one of the main problems with the world today, not enough love all round.
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written by teo siew chin, August 13, 2008 12:05:35
Dear Cubi76 - my understanding is that muslims are NOT allowed access to other religions. Is this (1) correct? and (2) fair?
Dear Shamsul - may we have your opinion on this?
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written by teo siew chin, August 13, 2008 12:25:03
Shamsul's answers to our questions will be more pertinent as I consider him to be one of us.
Dr Azly - I totally respect you and am in awe of your worldly knowledge and I will accept any statement from you only if you come down to my "lowly" level eye-to-eye smilies/grin.gif.
See my concerns, my pain, from my point of view - just an ordinary regular rakyat whose understanding may be basic but honest.
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written by teo siew chin, August 13, 2008 12:41:28
Dear SKC - if we must speak out against those who abuse Islam, surely we must also speak out against those who abuse christianity, buddhism, taoism, dll..hypocrites are aplenty, in fact all of us have a certain degree of this ailment. But what we must NOT accept are those who run the country and abuse us RAKYAT with their hypocrisy!
As for de luvvv - what can I say? It is much easier to hate?
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written by SUV, August 13, 2008 13:12:13
bro shamsul,
pay close to the keywords "sustainer",n "community as one"..who sustains?why is it one?btw,bro,the q & a was not actually meant for u..it was also meant for me..
yesterday,i checked n found out some muslim skolars melekehkan alla dwelling in all...sheesh..these fellas r not muslim skolars...ther r actually buddhist nihilists!! smilies/shocked.gif
buddhism is an "extremist" dharma..the world,n everthing is negated becos it doesnt reflect the absolute..even soul/central being,divine spark is negated becos everthing dissolves in the absolute..do we see a motionless,silence,absolute in the quran?talak meh.. smilies/grin.gif..we see,feel, n read a the presence of a supreme conscious being( the Ever Living, the Self-Subsisting and All-Sustaining. Slumber siezes Him not, nor sleep)..in sanskrit the self sustaning supreme being is known as purushotamma...and most importantly the quran brings back ,or shall we say restores back the divine entity called soul/ruh?(which is the supreme itself)..its dis dat sustain us n everthing else..
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written by SUV, August 13, 2008 13:13:07
the great vedantic declaration SAT CIT ANANDA..which means existance,consciousness,bliss
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written by SUV, August 13, 2008 15:21:48
Wednesday, August 13, 2008
Proposed Solution On The “Conversion to Islam” Problem in Malaysia
I admit there are clear and present problem with regards to new converts in Malaysia. I even wrote an article with regards to the Siti Fatimah Tan's return to her original faith.
It is not just me, but other Muslim lawyers like Hanifa Maidin and many more recognizes the existence of real problem with regards to conversion to Islam in Malaysia.
In fact, the Siti Fatimah Tan issue is an example of how the issue is actively being resolved by the Shariah community in Malaysia. It is not true that the Shariah community wants to exploit the situation to prove the supremacy of Islam over the non-muslims.
But before any solution can be achieved there are a few ground rules that both side must be willing to accept:
That Muslims in the country must recognize that problems faced by newly converts, especially in the case of marriage, is real and it is not a form of disrespect to Islam when addressing it.
Non Muslims must accept the fact that Muslims in the country will not renounce the Shariah system as a form of a solution to these problems.
Forcing Muslims to accept secularism in place of Islam is a sure way of not resolving the issue.
Muslims will also need to recognize that these problems are sign of weakness on the part of them as well in taking care of the welfare of the newly converts.
It is also a great news to read when the President of FORKAD ( Front Against Apostasy), the honorable Riduan Mohd Nor has proposed an inter-party forum to discuss issues with regards to implementation of Islam in the country. (Read the report here). The fact that the President of FORKAD has called for a forum like so shows that there is ample room for a harmonious and effective solution.
Therefore, I proposed a fixed forum which comprises:
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written by SUV, August 13, 2008 15:22:23
Therefore, I proposed a fixed forum which comprises:
Non Islam religious bodies such as Malaysian Consultative Council of Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism and Taoism (MCCBCHST)
Members of the Shariah Legal Fratenities across Malaysia such as Persatuan Peguam Syariee Malaysia
Members of the Civil Law Legal Fratenities such as the BAR Council
Muslim NGO
Civil Soceity NGO
Government Agencies such as the Shariah Courts Officials, JAWI, JAKIM, JAIS etc.
The forum will have to be closed and limited to members only. This is because the issues discussed will be vary sensitive and having it open will limit the freedom of the panel to express themselves effectively.
After each forum, a resolution my be reached followed by a joint Press Statement from all sides on the results achieved. Only after a solution is agreed upon by both side will an open forum be held. Panels of the open forum will be balanced between both sides of the divide.
I believe such move will resolve pressing problems with regards to the Shariah-Civil streamlining and not result in unnecessary tension among the communities in Malaysia.
Personal Experience
When I lived in the USA, I was part of the inter-faith council held by the Islamic Center in the city I lived in. I remember the first meeting I attended was comprised of the local Imam/Sheikh, a party from the Lutheran Church and also a representative of the Jewish Synagouge. That’s right you heard me right, we had an Orthodox Jew attend a meeting in our local Masjid.
We managed to reach a decision to foster better understanding of each other faith among the members of our respective communities.
I didn’t get a chance to attend subsequent meetings. But I heard the positive effect of the initiative was seen in the aftermath of the 911 tragedy. It is informed to me that members of the local Church and Syanagouge express their concern for the safety of the Masjid in the city and asked the local Police to provide protection during the first Friday prayer after the 911 incident.
As for Anti Muslim incidences, in the city I lived in, there was no such incident reported. So, there is gain from mutual understanding and respect for each other.
Which is why i believed secularism should not even enter into the picture because secularism is essentially an anti-religion ideology, an anti-thesis to religion. A secularist approach towards this issue is a disaster waiting to happen.
In conclusion, if we can better understand each other without the need to impose our individual beliefs upon each other, we can grow into a harmonious people.
Tulang Besi
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written by SUV, August 13, 2008 15:28:37
vivekananda's quotes..
All truth is eternal. Truth is nobody’s property; no race, no individual can lay any exclusive claim to it. Truth is the nature of all souls.
All power is within you. You can do anything and everything. Believe in that. Do not believe that you are weak; do not believe that you are half-crazy lunatics, as most of us do nowadays. Stand up and express the divinity within you
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written by Brian, August 14, 2008 02:44:50
SKC,
IMHO, one should only convert if they believe. Though i must add that converting out of love may be construed as sacrifice, but lets not confuse ourselves. There's a reason why there are two distinct words used to describe each uniquely.
TSC, Shamsul & SUV,
All of you have your opinions/religion, as do the rest of us. Conclusion: Its ok to have differing points of view/religions. Communication should be fostered to seek understanding. After which, acceptance of differing opinions/religions is in order.
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written by crazygweilo, August 14, 2008 04:14:31
Islam is fine, but the rights of people to choose religious freedom is sacrosanct. What I find threatening, as a non Muslim is the integration of religion with state. That to me represents a pernicious influence that can only do Islam a disservice.
Seperating religion from state is a painful process. Only one Islamic country has done it to a reasonable extent, and that is Mustapha Kemal Ataturks Turkish Republic. In the process of doing so, he had to engage in repressive tactics towards the Imams/Mullahs/Ulamaks.
In Malaysia, there is a huge rural urban divide. My signature, crazygweilo is a giveaway towards my outlook. It is only recently that I have truly seen the diversity of Malaysia, and taken the time and effort to explore the East Coast regions of Pahang, Terranganu and Kelantan.
On seeing it, I could see the reasons for the massive migration from those regions to what I term "The big five".
I term the big five as the five main cities in Malaysia. Primarily Kuala Lumpur and Johor Bahru. The centre of Johor Bahru is nicknamed "Little Kelantan". Penang, Melaka and Kuantan are economic powerhouses to a smaller degree.
Integrating religion with political and economic policy is a proven disaster. Jesus Christ himself said that stating "Render unto God the things that are Gods, and render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars".
In the attempt to create heaven on earth, and create a Kingdom of God on earth, we run the risk of excessive interpretation of sacred books. To do so, ignores the unfortunate reality that we are mortal beings trapped in an imperfect world, with scarce resources. We can do good deeds to our fellow man. We can also inflict loss of freedom on our fellow man in the urge to chase good deeds and purity.
Let us look at a Law, which is perfectly good by Islam, and was quite good under Western Law. I refer to the abused Section 377A/B/C used and abused on DSAI. let us be under NO illusions whatsoever, that however desirable that law looks to religious leaders, it is, now, no more and no less, nothing more than a blackmailers charter on one hand, and a tool in the hands of despots on the other. BUT who is going to dare repeal it, and undergo the risk of being vilified as a closet homosexual.
Thats just one example.
There are others. My Muslim friends like a beer. Are they going to live in fear of a JAWI or RELA member arresting them. They should not drink beer, but surely that is their choice.
My chinese friends and I like to play cards. We play for small amounts of money. We know its illegal. But we choose to do so nevertheless, as we are responsible adults, even after alcohol. If I lose money, and get drunk, it is my fault.
There is balance.
On Sunday, I have my God. On Friday, Muslims have theirs. On certain days Buddhist will pray.
Granted that this nation is predominantly Muslim, but to integrate religion with all parts of every day life, and attempt to enforce that will lead to the resentment and mockery of religion. Although I am secular, when anyone of my race or creed insults Islam I am the first to defend Islam. This is only because of my tolerant and liberal Muslim friends.
You know.....beneath our mockery, and satire, Pak Lah, Najib, Hishamuddin Hussein etc are probably nice people. Unfortunately, they ARE politicians, and they have to put on an outward show. Maybe they like a beer, or a glass of wine or whiskey, but they'll never admit it, and you'll never see it. If they do, who gives a damn. This holier than thou nonsense will only lead to trouble. However, it is alleged that Tunku Abdul Rahman only saw the flames over Kuala Lumpur after a winning Poker hand, and the likely words were "What the **** was that".
And the rest is history. Since.....well.....thats another story for another time.
There is a war between secular outlook and the religious outlook. Somewhere in between is a solution. To look purely at religion as a solution is a disaster. Tunku Abdul Rahman would be horrified to see Malaysia now. P Ramlee would be horrified. Onn Jaafar never wanted this, nor did the founding fathers. This was not the Malaysia they wanted, and all, of all races would do well to remember this.
And who am I to comment. Just another crazy gweilo in this land.
Nice people, pity about the politicians. How come everywhere I travel I end up saying the same thing, and preferring the opposition. Except Singapore, because the opposition has been emasculated by relative perfection with serious faults.
Singapore is fascist. Malaysia is mildly fascist.
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written by teo siew chin, August 14, 2008 08:31:41
Brian - well and fine if we can rationalise and are broad-minded.
The problem is how do we deal with those whose minds are not only set but encrusted in concrete!
We must try to change the mind-set of the general masses and that kawan-kawan is the hardest thing to do.
Crazygweilo - you reckon it was the system that made the politicians or the politicians that made the system? smilies/wink.gif
(pssst, system sucks!)
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written by SUV, August 14, 2008 11:53:55
aah brain,
i am not talkin about my personal opinion lah..macah,i m stressing on spritual realities,faham tak..maybe u cant differentiate religion n spirituality..
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written by SUV, August 14, 2008 11:54:36
teo san,which system sucks? smilies/wink.gif smilies/grin.gif
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written by SUV, August 14, 2008 12:03:03
honestly speaking,europeans r at level=0 when it comes to sprituality..they r actually recycling falsafah,sains,n invention that were known, practiced n exhausted by asian cultures thousands of years ago..
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written by SUV, August 14, 2008 12:04:47
The Second (Secondary) Poise of the Supermind
The second of the three poises of the Supramental Truth-Consciounsess, is described by Sri Aurobindo says
"In the second poise of the supermind the Divine Consciousness stands back in the idea from the movement which it contains, realising it by a sort of apprehending consciousness, following it, occupying and inhabiting its works, seeming to distribute itself in its forms. In each name and form it would realise itself as the stable Conscious-Self, the same in all; but also it would realise itself as a concentration of Conscious-Self following and supporting the individual play of movement and upholding its differentiation from other play of movement, -- the same everywhere in soul-essence, but varying in soul-form. This concentration supporting the soul-form would be the individual Divine or Jivatman as distinguished from the universal Divine or one all-constituting self. There would be no essential difference, but only a practical differentiation for the play which would not abrogate the real unity. The universal Divine would know all soul-forms as itself and yet establish a different relation with each separately and in each with all the others. The individual Divine would envisage its existence as a soul-form and soul-movement of the One and, while by the comprehending action of consciousness it would enjoy its unity with the One and with all soul-forms, it would also by a forward or frontal apprehending action support and enjoy its individual movement and its relations of a free difference in unity both with the One and with all its forms. If our purified mind were to reflect this secondary poise of supermind, our soul could support and occupy its individual existence and yet even there realise itself as the One that has become all, inhabits all, contains all, enjoying even in its particular modification its unity with God and its fellows. In no other circumstance of the supramental existence would there be any characteristic change; the only change would be this play of the One that has manifested its multiplicity and of the Many that are still one, with all that is necessary to maintain and conduct the play."
The Life Divine (10th ed.), , pp.146-7
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so brian..wats dis?religion,or spiritual reality?
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written by SUV, August 14, 2008 12:34:27
BEHOLD, We have created you all out of a male and a female,
and have made you into nations and tribes, so that you might come to know one another...
This community of yours is one single community,
since I am the Sustainer of you all: remain, then, conscious of me.
Qur'an 49:13, 23:52
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man,its so clear..the reality of the supreme oness is visible in verse after verse..note "this community of yours..since i am the sustainer of you all"..this means every community,muslim,non muslim,the orang asli,everybody r under the command of the supreme..yalah..howlah to escape the kindom of the suprem,beloved ONE?isnt everthing under HIS/HER control,n HIS/HER domain..? dats whylah jumpiing frm dis or dat religion is smilies/cheesy.gif ..we r jumping frm one divine area into another divine area,but,due to foolisheness n ignorance,lack of spirtual insight,we think we r making a quantum leap..
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written by teo siew chin, August 14, 2008 13:41:01
Super-Suv ah, ini Quran 49:23:52 tolong boleh paste similar verse from the Bible, Bhagavad-Gita, Book of Tao, apa-apa religion book, kamasutra dll ah?
That verse is more than enough proof of our one-ness...that we are all in this together, sama-sama...
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written by skc, August 14, 2008 14:54:02
Wa, really put me to shame, these latest comments is so level headed and deep, it really make me feels small and mean. If I have offended, I am sorry to all. Malaysian has grown up after all. smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/cool.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/cool.gif
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written by skc, August 14, 2008 14:54:59
Only on this site, you people should visit other sites, really make me vomit blood sometimes.
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written by SUV, August 14, 2008 15:04:54
the vedas,upansihads,gita,shankya filosi can kasi quotes..but the tao is same as buddhism,both enter d absolute waat..dis aboslute is static,nothingness( n everything potential)..no sound,formless(arupa)..things like dat..this oso expect of the supreme
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written by SUV, August 14, 2008 15:08:48
dis sama samaness is the position of the supreme...hayoo bro teo san...me is the no expat,but..truth need to be told.. smilies/smiley.gif
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written by SUV, August 14, 2008 15:14:14
kamasutra eh? smilies/wink.gif..taroh pattern we all know wat secara semula jadi smilies/kiss.gif smilies/grin.gif..no need quotes..action toks!! smilies/cheesy.gif
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written by SUV, August 14, 2008 15:31:08
teo sah..here is 1 quote..hehe smilies/grin.gif
Threefold are those supreme births of this divine force that is in the world, they are true, they are desirable; he moves there wide-overt within the Infinite and shines pure, luminous and fulfilling.... That which is immortal in mortals and possessed of the truth, is a god and established inwardly as an energy working out in our divine powers.... Become high-uplifted, O Strength, pierce all veils, manifest in us the things of the Godhead.
Vamadeva - Rig Veda, IV. 1. 7; IV. 2. 1; IV. 4. 5.
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written by SUV, August 14, 2008 15:34:52
mau lagi?hehe...
A perfect path of the Truth has come into being for our journey to the other shore beyond the darkness.
Rig Veda I. 46. 11.
O Truth-Conscious, be conscious of the Truth, cleave out many streams of the Truth.
Rig Veda V. 12. 2.
O Flame, O Wine, your force has become conscious; you have discovered the One Light for the many.
Rig Veda I. 93. 4.
Pure-white and dual in her largenesses, she follows effectively, like one who knows, the path of the Truth and diminishes not its directions.
V. 80. 4.
By the Truth they hold the Truth that holds all, in the power of the Sacrifice, in the supreme ether.
Rig Veda V. 15. 2.
O Immortal, thou art born in mortals in the law of the Truth, of Immortality, of Beauty.... Born from the Truth, he grows by the Truth, -- a King, a Godhead, the Truth, the Vast.
Rig Veda IX. 110. 4; 108. 8.
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written by teo siew chin, August 14, 2008 15:40:57
"action toks!!" smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif amen to dat smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/cheesy.gif must be the 'love' SKC was tokking about eh!! smilies/wink.gif smilies/wink.gif
Dear SKC - we are no where near deep yet!
that is why the rakyat can be manipulated twisted turned left right... kasihan
and the rakyat are just simple honest folks struggling to make a living day to day ... memang kasihan. does the rakyat feel the gomen has abandoned them?
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written by Brian, August 14, 2008 21:59:03
Brian - well and fine if we can rationalise and are broad-minded.
The problem is how do we deal with those whose minds are not only set but encrusted in concrete!
We must try to change the mind-set of the general masses and that kawan-kawan is the hardest thing to do.
Well teo,
I believe Dr Azly mentioned it best in his next article. This can only be achieved thru education. The state of which in Malaysia I must say is extremely appalling!
Honestly, look at any organization or family for that matter, often you'd find individuals whose mind-sets are equally encrusted in concrete too. I'd say deal with those that can be dealt with. Why hammer away at those that refuse to accept nor seek comprehension? I mean, try changing some opinion or ideas that our parents may have. Its impossible!
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written by Brian, August 14, 2008 22:05:41
SUV, I'd say that was spiritual reality... correct me if i'm wrong and do share more...
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written by SUV, August 15, 2008 12:02:17
"and the rakyat are just simple honest folks struggling to make a living day to day.."
me is d one of them.. smilies/sad.gif
ya brian,spritual realities of the supreme..its near yet so far eh?
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written by teo siew chin, August 15, 2008 13:26:24
and if we 'starve' the rakyat enuf whether from food of body or of mind... mungkin somting drastic will happen ....
'religion' can feed the starvation?
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written by teo siew chin, August 15, 2008 13:27:29
SUV - we are all 'one of them' lah... we are all in this together
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written by teo siew chin, August 15, 2008 14:43:27
"I mean, try changing some opinion or ideas that our parents may have. Its impossible!"
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Brian - only one word in that statement of yours is the most important. TRY.
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written by teo siew chin, August 15, 2008 14:45:41
TRY to change for the better.
TRY to change the other.
TRY to change ourself.
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written by SUV, August 15, 2008 15:08:51
'religion' can feed the starvation?
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u is d mean spiritual thirst n hunger or orang betui betui suffering frm hunger?ini siki personal hehe..if a aah,spritual hunger is very great,outer needs,including makan becomes secondary..looklah @ those buddhist monks,yogis,saints..but no way should we preach to people who r starving,struggling...thots n energies should b directed utk menhapuskan punca punca yg create starvation,stagnation
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written by SUV, August 15, 2008 15:14:05
and if we 'starve' the rakyat enuf whether from food of body or of mind... mungkin somting drastic will happen ....
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hehe,dis type of conditionlah gives n gave birth to revolutions..french,russian revolusis for example..and gess who pwers dat? smilies/wink.gif
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written by SUV, August 15, 2008 15:20:06
i is d traoh vivekananda quotes..
Brave, bold men and women, these are what we want. What we want is vigor in the blood, strength in the nerves, iron muscles and nerves of steel, not softening namby-pamby ideas. Avoid all these. Avoid all mystery. There is no mystery in religion
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written by SUV, August 15, 2008 15:30:29
more vivekanada gems..
So long as the millions live in hunger and ignorance, I hold every person a traitor who, having been educated at their expense, pays not the least heed to them!
Soft-brained people, weak-minded, chicken-hearted, cannot find the truth. One has to be free, and as broad as the sky.
Stick to God! Who cares what comes to the body or to anything else! Through the terrors of evil, say—my God, my love! Through the pangs of death, say—my God, my love! Through all the evils under the sun, say my God, my love
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written by teo siew chin, August 15, 2008 16:44:18
"...Soft-brained people, weak-minded, chicken-hearted,..."
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wohhhh sound like me lah... smilies/grin.gif
i will not find what i am not looking for...
i cannot seek for answers to questions that i do not know exist....
and if i know all the answers... i may not have asked all the questions...
and i need a kit-kat now! smilies/cheesy.gif
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written by SUV, August 16, 2008 21:04:35
ala c teo san..dontlah lower urself..
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written by SUV, August 16, 2008 21:07:19
vivekananda was silently involved in revolutionary activities..sister nevidita(his irish disciple) carried out his programs ...wanna know something else..one of the earliest revolts for independence in india were carried out by hindu n muslim saints/yogis..yes..ini fakta betui
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written by SUV, August 16, 2008 21:08:29
not kit kat..one big botoi of chivas..hehe smilies/cheesy.gif
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written by Sylvia, August 17, 2008 00:02:28
To shamsul and those who supported him and wondering why non-muslim like to discuss indepths into Islam and its laws.
I am, of cos a non-muslim. I am also wondering why are you so against non-muslims know more4 about Islam? Who knows if after knowing about Islam more , we may want to embrace your religion? What are muslims hiding that non-muslims are not allowed to discuss or know more?
I whould be very happy and welcomne with open arms if anyone wants to know more about my religion and I would be glorifying my GOD if I can convert anyone to my religion...why are muslims not having this type of good and godly attitude to convert as many people to Islam?With muslims protests during the Bar Council Form, it has painted a very ugly picture of muslims and Islam as a whole, why should muslims especially the gopvernment in support of the protest? Non-0muslims wants to learn more Islam but Muslims are not willing to give them a chance? Is that too ironical? Please give my comments a thought Sahmsul!
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written by SUV, August 17, 2008 12:58:54
and wat's ur religion sylivia? smilies/grin.gif
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written by SUV, August 17, 2008 13:01:19
so sylvia,wats d meaning of the cross? smilies/grin.gif
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written by teo siew chin, August 18, 2008 12:07:04
"The Cross
"...people sometimes go far as to make the cross an object of adoration or an icon in its own right"
God-fearing Christians believe that Jesus accepted crucifixion on a cross for the benefit of us all. The message from this is at the heart of all true gospel preaching and consequently the cross symbol is used by two billion Christians all over the world.
This has not always been the case however. Christians didn’t use the sign of the cross as their religious symbol for many generations after Christ was crucified. Rather than being a Christian symbol it had associations with executioners.
So initially, Christians adopted the fish symbol to identify their religion. Then, early in the fourth century, when execution by crucifixion was abolished by Emperor Constantine and the process began to convert the "official" religion of the Roman Empire to Christianity, the cross became the emblem for Christians.
The cross is now carried by more people than any other religious talisman and is considered by many to be sacred. People sometimes go far as to make the cross an object of adoration or an icon in its own right. (See also Pagan Items Adopted by Christians and The Old Rugged Cross.)
When an image of Christ (corpus) is shown nailed to a cross, it is usually called a crucifix. Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches often display crucifixes to emphasize Christ's sacrifice. Protestant crosses usually depict the cross without the corpus, to emphasize the resurrection..."
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SUV my fren, u dah too much chivas-ed smilies/grin.gif
your question to sylvia should be 'what does the cross mean to YOU"...duhhh.
btw Shamsul dah 'hit-and-run'?
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written by TKAL, August 24, 2008 13:19:37
Hi All,
I just find it funny after reading the article about the MARA incident. On one hand, the BN politician (to contest in the coming by-election) proudly wrote in chinese calligraphy "We are one family". But on the other hand, MARA students were protesting the open door for non-bumis.
If we are so-called one family, do you actually forbid your siblings from furthering their study to higher education if being given the opportunity? Isn't that totally absurd???
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